Windows 10 S might alarm Valve into boosting SteamOS again

Quoting: MintedGamer

Quoting: julespetrikov

Quoting: webcreatureThat's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

"Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find."

No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that such an act would be a very stupid business decision due to consumer factor. Unless they're hardcore Microsoft fans people would not pay for closed ecosystems. For instances, instead of paying 500 + 49$ (I don't know about the prices in US, sorry) for a fully functional lower-medium range notebook from the Vendor X, they would just buy a similar notebook from Vendor Y with FreeDOS or Windows 10 Pro for 500 total. Since majority of the third party vendors are aware that people are looking for functionality than "convenience of Microsoft Store" they will sell regular windows or not sell at all with their rigs.

The problem we're having here is that the above scenario is already a reality. Windows 10 S is not a popular choice and it will not be a popular choice in the future. That's simple as that. The only issue with this whole thing is that Microsoft is trying to rip people off by possibly making S-Mode enabled versions to be the default for "Windows as a service" in cheap rigs of notebooks, all-in-ones and especially netbooks/tablets. These devices either are not meant for gaming or are not powerful enough to game; either way they're not cost effective under many circumstances when considering the fact that there's the purpose of gaming and such devices are meant to be cheap, accessible and multi-purpose. -- Your average gamer will not buy a "PC" that doesn't support older/current titles, software and/or platforms

For the question you asked, yes such act would drive people away from Microsoft to different ecosystems or to piracy. It's quite foreseeable. Those people at Microsoft have to be a special kind of dumb to expect locking people down only to Microsoft Store, because that would be quitting the game.

-- and for that matter, I would happily not to build my stuff for Windows because they don't support my stuff to begin with. Let's see how that logic would help Microsoft in any industry. Nope.

People do buy closed ecosystems, iOS and Android are proof of that. Even in the case you describe with a Windows laptop for $549 and exactly the same laptop with Linux for $500, people will buy the $549 laptop because they will see the Windows and Office badges and buy it because that's what they are familiar with. Most standard non-technical users would rather pay the $49 than learn a new OS (that they have no interest in) and buy and swap all their familiar programs to Linux versions. In that regard Microsoft has lock in.

All they need to do (and are in the process of doing) is:

- Upgrade as much of the userbase as possible to Windows 10
- Force updates upon users and get them used to it
- Add S mode as the default, include a free switch to the "legacy" version, put in big warning signs to scare users not to switch - if they include an emulator in S mode most users won't even notice
- Wait as long as it takes for a critical mass of UWP apps. MS has deep pockets they can move at snails pace if needed
- Charge for the "legacy" version, keep S version as free
- Job done, UWP is now the standard.
- End the free period for the S version.

They can invite Valve to create a UWP app, even go as far as saying they won't double-dip developers into having to make both a Store and a Steam payment. They then charge developers less and undercut Valve (they do this to competitors all the time). Eventually raise prices.

Microsoft have been trying to shift their users to UWP since before 2010, there are no indications they are about to stop. In fact the opposite.

I dont know about that mate. I mean, if people see a PC with Elementary OS or Deepin i'm pretty sure they will be interested.

I believe that if people saw a nice laptop with a nice linux distro store, they would be interested. Specially if you say stuff like dont get viruses so easily and etc.

Chrome OS has pretty good slling numbers even not doing a lot of things other OSes do. Maybe Linux has a big potencial but doesnt have a marketing campaign good enough to achieve that potencial

Quoting: t3gI'd love if Valve updated the bundled libraries for the Steam client to Ububtu 18.04 in April.

Kinda pathetic it still ships with 12.04 libraries from 2012...

Those libraries caused me nothing but woe. Use snaps and Flatpaks, and let us choose whether or not we even want an outdated and barely functioning runtime at all.

Quoting: WJMazepas

Quoting: MintedGamer

Quoting: julespetrikov

Quoting: webcreatureThat's why S will not be a version anymore, but a mode built into any version. Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find. That way they did bad buisiness as long as I can remember. Also I can remember they have a history of wanting too much at once, then row back a bit, just to try it again later.
This time they could sell S mode as a chance for end users to have more security, while leaving the possibility for "sideloading" open. Who will argue against that except for those who think this alone can cut into the future Steam marketshare. I think most of the Windows gamers will flip the switch to turn S mode off, and be happy about it. New users however won't do that so easyly. At the same time MS could argue Win32 was insecure, legacy, the old ways, while everyone is "invited" to embrace the new ways. The MS Store would be open for everyone and so forth, all in the name of security and progress. And it would be so interoperable with XBox. Maybe they present some exclusive games for Windows and XBox.. I don't know.
What I do not understand clearly: Do you think that what MS is apparently up to do is irrelevant for gaming, do you think it is not and will drive gamers away, or do you think it will just not happen?

"Ok, no one really knows what MS does, and if they will really pull that off, but it is well known they use every leverage they can find."

No, you misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm just telling you that such an act would be a very stupid business decision due to consumer factor. Unless they're hardcore Microsoft fans people would not pay for closed ecosystems. For instances, instead of paying 500 + 49$ (I don't know about the prices in US, sorry) for a fully functional lower-medium range notebook from the Vendor X, they would just buy a similar notebook from Vendor Y with FreeDOS or Windows 10 Pro for 500 total. Since majority of the third party vendors are aware that people are looking for functionality than "convenience of Microsoft Store" they will sell regular windows or not sell at all with their rigs.

The problem we're having here is that the above scenario is already a reality. Windows 10 S is not a popular choice and it will not be a popular choice in the future. That's simple as that. The only issue with this whole thing is that Microsoft is trying to rip people off by possibly making S-Mode enabled versions to be the default for "Windows as a service" in cheap rigs of notebooks, all-in-ones and especially netbooks/tablets. These devices either are not meant for gaming or are not powerful enough to game; either way they're not cost effective under many circumstances when considering the fact that there's the purpose of gaming and such devices are meant to be cheap, accessible and multi-purpose. -- Your average gamer will not buy a "PC" that doesn't support older/current titles, software and/or platforms

For the question you asked, yes such act would drive people away from Microsoft to different ecosystems or to piracy. It's quite foreseeable. Those people at Microsoft have to be a special kind of dumb to expect locking people down only to Microsoft Store, because that would be quitting the game.

-- and for that matter, I would happily not to build my stuff for Windows because they don't support my stuff to begin with. Let's see how that logic would help Microsoft in any industry. Nope.

People do buy closed ecosystems, iOS and Android are proof of that. Even in the case you describe with a Windows laptop for $549 and exactly the same laptop with Linux for $500, people will buy the $549 laptop because they will see the Windows and Office badges and buy it because that's what they are familiar with. Most standard non-technical users would rather pay the $49 than learn a new OS (that they have no interest in) and buy and swap all their familiar programs to Linux versions. In that regard Microsoft has lock in.

All they need to do (and are in the process of doing) is:

- Upgrade as much of the userbase as possible to Windows 10
- Force updates upon users and get them used to it
- Add S mode as the default, include a free switch to the "legacy" version, put in big warning signs to scare users not to switch - if they include an emulator in S mode most users won't even notice
- Wait as long as it takes for a critical mass of UWP apps. MS has deep pockets they can move at snails pace if needed
- Charge for the "legacy" version, keep S version as free
- Job done, UWP is now the standard.
- End the free period for the S version.

They can invite Valve to create a UWP app, even go as far as saying they won't double-dip developers into having to make both a Store and a Steam payment. They then charge developers less and undercut Valve (they do this to competitors all the time). Eventually raise prices.

Microsoft have been trying to shift their users to UWP since before 2010, there are no indications they are about to stop. In fact the opposite.

I dont know about that mate. I mean, if people see a PC with Elementary OS or Deepin i'm pretty sure they will be interested.

I believe that if people saw a nice laptop with a nice linux distro store, they would be interested. Specially if you say stuff like dont get viruses so easily and etc.

Chrome OS has pretty good slling numbers even not doing a lot of things other OSes do. Maybe Linux has a big potencial but doesnt have a marketing campaign good enough to achieve that potencial

Two things, very effective at keeping Linux away. Cargo culture and decentralisation.

Intel Microsoft Nvidia and the like adore perpetuating myths about their competitors. Like we all know that AMD cards run hot, except they don't, or that their Linux drivers are horrible, except they provide an OpenSource Wayland compliant kernel module while Nvidia is still considering KMS.

Linux has come a long way. As a recent Mac user and a long time Windows user I must say that UI/UX wise they're doing a lot better than both. Drivers aren't an issue anymore and save from Linus Sebastian giving advice that will brick most systems, the systems are by far the most reliable.

Problem is, we don't have as many people doing the good work. We need more forums like this one, we need more youtube channels like Linux gamer, more companies like Dell, to give us prebuilt PCs with Linux as an option not a gimmick. People are lazy, and unless we expose them to Linux in a good way, nothing's gonna change.

On that note, We still need to iron a few things out: Wayland is not complete, we still need to do plenty of under-the-hood improvements, before the aggressive marketing will even have a chance. Right now, we'd only make the task even harder.

Quoting: TheRiddickValve GOG etc will just haft to pay Microsoft to get access to their user-base in the future. IT WILL HAPPEN, just a matter of when. Not like they can do anything about it, sure they could argue anti competitive behaviour but I don't think that would truly fly in court these days given what we have seen happen in other industries. Basically they can push their own platform however they like, just like how MacOS does, and Netflix etc etc......

Alternatives exist like SteamOS and Linux, unfortunately its hard to move people off Windows. For example I'm using it atm because I have Fallout 4 / SkyrimSE / Witcher 3 on windows, can't run them on Linux (wine) at 4K@60fps...

I agree. It will happen.

I believe that this version of Windows is actually intended for schools (I think I remember the S standing for student, but I'm not entirely sure). For them, this makes a lot of sense, not being able to install anything but what is in the Windows store makes Windows more secure (similar to Apples walled garden). I don't think this is intended for a wider audience and schools don't want students messing with their oses just incase they break something (you could argue that it's the ITs job to fix this, but lets ignore that). So this isn't really intended for widespread use, so in my opinion, Valve doesn't really have anything to fear.

I see this S version as a separate offering. I don't think anybody needs to get scared or spread a doom message to their poor Windows friends.

Other articles of this type on this site have been a bit more reasonable than this one. This one feels a little... slash-dot-ie.

Quoting: ElectricPrism

Quoting: BlackBloodRumNext up: Monthly subscription for Windows 10!

It's only 9.99/mo what's the big deal -- it's not like it's 100 bucks a year or anything

/sarcasm

For which my argument would be 9.99 over 12 months would be 119.88, so that's more than a 100 bucks a year :-P.

I really wish people would stop being sheep.

Thankfully it's a non-issue for me as I do not use Windows at all, not even at work (at work, computers also run Linux) so I can avoid Microsoft entirely in my daily life. Life is far happier when you don't have to deal with them or their OS.

Quoting: appetrosyan

Quoting: t3gI'd love if Valve updated the bundled libraries for the Steam client to Ububtu 18.04 in April.

Kinda pathetic it still ships with 12.04 libraries from 2012...

Those libraries caused me nothing but woe. Use snaps and Flatpaks, and let us choose whether or not we even want an outdated and barely functioning runtime at all.

Yet the runtime provides a somewhat stable platform for developers and mostly works just fine on Steam's target distributions. Game devs are not forced to use the libraries in the runtime anyway. They exist for their convenience.

Also, if you're running proprietary binaries on a rolling distro, you get to keep the pieces. I have nothing against Arch or any other distro, but there are always drawbacks.

Quoting: Sol33t303I believe that this version of Windows is actually intended for schools (I think I remember the S standing for student, but I'm not entirely sure). For them, this makes a lot of sense, not being able to install anything but what is in the Windows store makes Windows more secure (similar to Apples walled garden). I don't think this is intended for a wider audience and schools don't want students messing with their oses just incase they break something (you could argue that it's the ITs job to fix this, but lets ignore that). So this isn't really intended for widespread use, so in my opinion, Valve doesn't really have anything to fear.

Schools already have the option of limiting software installs to their own selection, and at least local schools do this on their Windows computers. I don't see how handing more control of this process to Microsoft helps them, especially if it breaks compatibility with some of their software.

IMHO the only advantage of UWP is that it asks devs to put more effort in optimizing their software for multi-core systems. I hope that Wine will support it at some time (but we all know that Microsoft will do everything they can to prevent that from happening any time soon).
And I hope that Nvidia starts doing the same to nouveau what AMD did to radeon … at least there is now a way to sign custom firmware images, which is usable for nouveau devs although it's primarily targeted at overclockers.

Hope dies last.


Last edited by Blauer_Hunger on 6 February 2018 at 7:53 am UTC

Quoting: GrazenUnderstood, my point is just that the next version of Windows - now called Windows Core OS (not related to the Core OS that Red Hat just bought) - will be a massive upgrade similar to the upgrade to Windows NT 20 years ago. This will be a bigger threat than Windows 10 S - and Liam's article as a result is already dated. The threat however, is even bigger than the hyperbole in his article.

Could you elaborate on why you see this threat as so severe?

Quoting: appetrosyanWayland is not complete, we still need to do plenty of under-the-hood improvements, before the aggressive marketing will even have a chance. Right now, we'd only make the task even harder.

On one hand I certainly understand the risks you're talking about. I mean, look at Steam Machines. On the other hand, there is the risk of overpreparing and betting too much on one big reveal that is supposed to be perfect and coming way too late or not coming at all. I mean, look at Steam Machines, I bet Valve learned a lot of really useful things from their first attempt that would help them tremendously if they eventually follow up. The whole "release early" philosophy exists for goods reasons. But yeah, Wayland is even conceptually incomplete if you ask me (I consider the "you can't have a DE-agnostic screenshot / screen recording tool because security" approach a serious mistake). So I'd say it's a delicate question and I wouldn't insist on any one answer to it at the moment.