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Open-source gaming on gnu linux
cynicfm commented on 31 October 2018 at 7:20 am UTC

Hey

I wanna write my thought on playing games on gnu linux.
So i think that playing proprietary games on open-source OS doesn't make any sense to me at all. I feel like playing all these steam games or ported to linux windows games doesn't contribute to the gnu linux very much.

i don't really understand people who are happy about steam on linux and windows games ported to linux as well... i also don't understand people who are convincing windows 10 users to change into linux.
i feel like if somebody is not interested in nature of free open-source then why would he want to swap his windows for some newest release of linux distro when all stuff works out of the box on windows 10, no sense.

I like playing these games like Dota 2 or some Runescape but in long term this is waste of energy. What do you learn from playing Steam games?? What do you learn from ported to linux windows games?? Shouldn't gnu linux be about open-source?? How playing Steam Games and Ported to linux windows games contributes to nature of free open-source?? Why bother with proprietary games and stuff??? Cuz it's fun?? Why won't you come back to windows 10 and play the same games without configuring all this stuff and packages?? Uhh because you're worried about security issues?? Is that it??

damarrin commented on 31 October 2018 at 8:24 am UTC

I think this site is not for you.

Rooster commented on 31 October 2018 at 8:50 am UTC

I'll go from bottom to up.

QuoteWhy won't you come back to windows 10 and play the same games without configuring all this stuff and packages?? Uhh because you're worried about security issues?? Is that it??

I switched from Windows 7 years ago, because it is a horrible OS. Yes, Windows has support for 99% software. But that is not an achievement by Microsoft, it is that way because it has 85% of market share. If Linux had 85% market share, it would be the other way around. In short, I use GNU/Linux because it is much better OS. Sure, it makes my life sometimes harder, if I want to use certain software or play a game which is not supported. And yes, it would make my life easier to switch back to Windows. However, if everyone did that, there would be no one switching to Linux and it would fade away. On the other hand, if everyone did what I did and take a stance, within 5 years, GNU/Linux would be the most used OS and we would live in much better world. You might think that's crazy and going too far just to take a stance, but let me give you an analogy: When you finish eating a chocolate bar on the street, do you throw out the thrash on the ground or do you carry it to the next thrash can and throw it there? I assume you are not a shit person and do the latter. But why? It's just one small piece of thrash and frankly speaking, throwing it on the ground would really not do any harm to people or the environment.

Why I think Windows is a horrible OS:
- It takes control from you: An OS should be your tool to control your PC, it shouldn't be above you. When I don't want to update my computer, I shouldn't be told by it that I have to. I can be warned, but never ordered. When I don't want to reboot my PC, I should not be forced to.
- It does stuff behind your back. Plenty of times, a software was installed, which I had no idea about.
- It has a back door
- It has a very long EULA agreement, which basically gives MS right to access your computer and files when they choose to.

If you read all the above, you will certainly agree that as far as OS goes, Linux is the clear winner. Then why do we stand for this shit? Why do we keep using Windows when there is a far better alternative? To play games? Because we are used to Windows software and are too lazy to learn alternatives? If you answered yes, then you are one of the people throwing thrash to the floor. Sure, there are many people who need to use software for work which only runs on Windows. Fortunately I'm not one of them. If I was, I would still dual boot and only use that software on Windows, everything else on GNU/Linux.

QuoteI like playing these games like Dota 2 or some Runescape but in long term this is waste of energy.
I agree, but in long term, playing any games, including free software games is a waste of energy. So yeah, I play games because it is fun and to support software usage on GNU/Linux. The thing is, I don't agree with Stallman, that GNU/Linux should only use free software. I agree that is the end goal, but to get there, we need to look at the big picture. Playing games on Linux supports development of games on Linux, which in result, will have more companies making games for Linux. Which in result will have more people switching to Linux to play games. Which in result will have more people using free software available on Linux to do other stuff.

Hopefully, that answers all your questions. If not, feel free to ask, I will answer. Please note, that everything what I written are my personal believes and opinions and while I'm sure it does correlate with other members opinions and believes here, it does not represent them. Here is another ramble about this topic with many points similar, but some quite different from my view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9ww0O8O4KI

debianxfce commented on 31 October 2018 at 11:00 am UTC

What do you learn from playing Steam games??

Patience and precision.

What do you learn from ported to linux windows games??

Patience and precision.

Shouldn't gnu linux be about open-source??

I am an open source fan. Open source games does not look and feel so good as payed versions. The budget of latest Tomb Raider was many million dollars and it shows.

How playing Steam Games and Ported to linux windows games contributes to nature of free open-source??

Playing windows games with wine-staging and dxvk is a great test tool for GPU drivers. Many open source code bugs are found by the gaming community.

Why bother with proprietary games and stuff??? Cuz it's fun??

Playing visually good and story 3D games is fun. Just Cause 3 and Tomb Raider 2013 are for Sale with 2-4 euros now. Great fun with a little of money.

Why won't you come back to windows 10 and play the same games without configuring all this stuff and packages??

Win10 is a buggy, resource hog and difficult to maintain virus hoover.

Uhh because you're worried about security issues?? Is that it??

I would not use internet banking with win10. Maintaining Debian is much easier, thanks to clear logs. The Xfce desktop is much faster and easier to use than win10 UI. I can fix bugs by my self when using Debian.

cynicfm commented on 31 October 2018 at 11:05 am UTC

Hey, thanks for long answer.

So you said that gnu/linux is better from windows because you have control over it, yeah. I tried many linux distros, manjaro, antergos, mint, ubuntu, fedora, i have never felt i have much control over my rig. Maybe it's because modern linux distros adepted systemd, and for me it's hard to configure anything on these distros or it's hard to find a solution for the problem if there's any. I for example had problems with running variety of games under wine on these moderns desktops, and never managed to find solutions. I use debian fork now with just init instead of systemd, and i was able to run any game i wanted here. Runescape 3, Diablo 3, Elder Scrolls Oblivion, Gothic 2, Heroes IV, Baldurs Gate, Warcraft 3...

Modern linux distros also have google DNS set by default, what if i avoid google and don't like them because i think they're evil, i am forced to have it anyways...

And according to what you said that u use linux, and i still don't understand why. You didn't really give me any particular reasons. As i said i have never felt i have any control of my OS under systemd distros. They feel bloated to me like Windows 10 is, like what the hell is tracker apps on Fedora??

You basically want linux to become another windows, where people use Linux over Windows because is free and open-source, oh really like who cares about open-source nowadays... Why would i want to install Linux to play steam if i can play it on windows.
If Linux is free and open-source, why bother with playing games that are proprietary?? Isn't using software like steam or online windows games bad?? You're saying it's okay to use proprietary software, where developer has control over you but it's not right to use proprietary windows... So you won't let microsoft have control over your computer, but you let Steam proprietary software have control over your computer?? God knows what's happening with your pc when you play steam game.
Few days ago i played dota 2 and i had problems with exiting steam later and had 5 processes webhelper open in task manager... Is it really nice and good to play games on services such as steam, if they're not different from google or microsoft. To me linux users are no different from windows users who pay their money to uncle Gabe Newell and worship him like he was a god cuz he ports games to linux to get bigger market share and more money. And you spend your energy and life to play steam games and Gabe is 5,5b dollars net worth now, what about you?? Do you get something in return from playing this proprietary games??

I can't agree with you that every game is the same, because gnu/linux should be about open-source in my opinion, i agree it shouldn't always be free, but well, i think it would be much better if you could buy a game that you can then study it's code and learn how it has been developed. What can you learn from Steam and other these proprietary games?? Nothing
I don't feel like i waste my energy playing open-source games because i have realised they're much better than these proprietary, the graphics is just different, but let's be honest, you play open-source games you learn how the game has been designed and then you can start coding your own games when you get knowledge while having fun too. Proprietary games is like windows, having fun but learning 0. Is learning new stuff waste of energy??? I don't really think so...

mirv commented on 31 October 2018 at 11:26 am UTC

So I personally use GNU/Linux for reasons other than gaming; gaming is just a bonus for me. Actually, it's more than just a bonus: I no longer dual booted and removed a Windows partition entirely when gaming really started to take off.

However, there is a benefit to free & open source software by playing some of these proprietary games. Basically drivers for GNU/Linux, particularly on the graphics stack, have improved along with more games coming along. With more games, there's more testing for the drivers, and with better drivers then the more stable (and so available) games are.

Game developers are behind quite a lot of fixes to Mesa as well - which in turn benefits open source gaming, closed source gaming, desktop applications (e.g. Blender), and the GNU/Linux desktop in general. A lot of work to radv comes from people funded by Valve these days, and improvements to radv help basically anyone using Vulkan on GNU/Linux.

So long as the OS itself is not reliant on proprietary software, and so long as I have the freedom to decide what software I run on that OS, then that's pragmatically sufficient for me. I tolerate Steam, but less so than I used to and prefer to buy single player games from GOG where possible just because I don't like needing proprietary software before I'm allowed to fire up a game (so I prefer the proprietary software I choose to use to be "self contained"), but there's no denying that Valve do contribute to drivers, thereby allowing me to enjoy more games from other sources.

cynicfm commented on 31 October 2018 at 11:52 am UTC

Okay, thanks for the answer mirv

So you said that it helps with drivers, do you think there is any possibility in the future that there will be open-source games with advanced graphics games like those from valve that will use newest drivers that r being tested??

Cuz for now on i think the only game under linux that has nice graphics and is free and open source is perhaps 0.A.D? There isn't very much of gpu usage though, i can play this game under intel hd graphics.

Well hopefully someday in the future in huge retail markets we will all see choice between linux and windows, linux free windows paid, however there are so many distros, most popular is ubuntu, but i heard they sold data about users to amazon...
It's a shame that computing is so primitive today, shops should have much more choices, there should be laptops with different distros, different setups, nowadays its just all about memory ram graphics card and perhaps CPU's either intel i5 or i7. What about budged laptops, budget windows 10 laptops are so damn slow... Iv never seen laptop in a shop preinstalled with linux or without OS...

But is this the way go, is it all about linux destroying windows competition to take over basically... And people gonna be forced to use linux now instead of windows, cuz for everybody there will be only one linux, the one that will take over...

Rooster commented on 31 October 2018 at 12:01 pm UTC

@cynicfm I feel like more than trying to understand why I use Linux/don't use Windows/use proprietary software on Linux, your agenda is more aimed at us understanding why you do thing the way you do it. Which is fine, I'm always interested in another point of view, but then what was the point of you asking those questions? You should have just written your opinion on that topic to begin with.

You then go on about how things are for you, from your point of view, which again I'm not sure what that has to do with how things are for me. from my point of view...

Mainly, the problem is that we are trying to discuss many topics at once and it is becoming a mess.

So if you want to continue this discussion, I suggest we discuss 1 topic first and then we can move on to another.

The topics from what I gathered are:

1. Why I don't use Windows?
2. Why I use GNU/Linux and not Mac OS or FreeBSD or another OS?
3. My view on open-source/free software - if and why I support this movement.
4. Your view on the same topic
5. My and your view on gaming in general, open-source gaming vs. proprietary gaming.
6. Control over PC (Win vs. GNU/Linux, systemd vs.init)
7. Or feel free to pick any other topic of your choice. But it is hard for me to continue this discussion without concentrating on a single topic.

mirv commented on 31 October 2018 at 12:53 pm UTC

cynicfmOkay, thanks for the answer mirv

So you said that it helps with drivers, do you think there is any possibility in the future that there will be open-source games with advanced graphics games like those from valve that will use newest drivers that r being tested??

So graphical complexity is an interesting one really, in that there's subjectively advanced technical code running underneath, but the assets and artwork don't really show it. There's also the opposite: really, really good artwork that runs on very subjectively simple technical code.

It's also not quite to simple as that because there might be combinations of features that cause problems, where any single would be quite ok. So it's a bit murky as to what defines "advanced".

Projects relating to gaming, like DXVK, are already stress testing a few areas that most commercial games aren't really touching yet. I daresay DXVK is one of the first, if not the first, to really use the new transform feedback extension for Vulkan. And DXVK is open source.

QuoteCuz for now on i think the only game under linux that has nice graphics and is free and open source is perhaps 0.A.D? There isn't very much of gpu usage though, i can play this game under intel hd graphics.

0.A.D started out as a closed source game and came with quite a bit of good graphics when it was open sourced. It's one reason for it to look so nice. Also, it's not directly funded (as far as I'm aware - but I've not read much in a while, so maybe there are fulltime paid people for it), and it's pretty hard to find people to create artwork and write advanced graphics code when those skill sets can employ them elsewhere. Most employers would have contract rules forbidding working on other, non-company, projects.
This may change with crowd funding one day, but for advanced features there are engines like Unreal, Unity, Cryengine to compete with in that regard. So getting a comparable FOSS game engine will take a little while longer I think.

QuoteWell hopefully someday in the future in huge retail markets we will all see choice between linux and windows, linux free windows paid, however there are so many distros, most popular is ubuntu, but i heard they sold data about users to amazon...
It's a shame that computing is so primitive today, shops should have much more choices, there should be laptops with different distros, different setups, nowadays its just all about memory ram graphics card and perhaps CPU's either intel i5 or i7. What about budged laptops, budget windows 10 laptops are so damn slow... Iv never seen laptop in a shop preinstalled with linux or without OS...

But is this the way go, is it all about linux destroying windows competition to take over basically... And people gonna be forced to use linux now instead of windows, cuz for everybody there will be only one linux, the one that will take over...

One distro to rule them all, one distro to find them, one distro to bring them all and in the hardware bind them.
So there's a few items of note about standardising on one particular distro. It gives quite a lot of power to whoever controls that distro, and they might have commercial considerations that aren't friendly to the user. It's one reason why I use Gentoo - for the pure control over everything that I have. I don't feel like I have the same level of control when using Ubuntu, but then I suppose Ubuntu is not aimed at control freaks.
And this is one downside to proprietary gaming: developers generally have to pick a distro to test against, and then may rely on system library versions shipped with that distro (along with any tweaks the distro might make). There are some games I can't play for that very reason (ironically, using Wine often fixes this for me - I can play some Windows games under GNU/Linux better than I can play the same native title).

By and large though, because of the GPL, even one distro ruling cannot take ultimate power away from the users. That's the whole purpose behind the GPL: distros rely on GPL code, and so can't close off too much. The moment the distro tries, then those who are using GNU/Linux for reasons of wanting open source and control of their hardware can very easily swap to something else.

cynicfm commented on 31 October 2018 at 2:39 pm UTC

Hey, thanks for answers

Gentoo sounds very interesting, however i am not sure if i would be able to install it, my linux knowledge is only few commands in terminal and stuff...

I just finished playing 2 rounds in dota 2 on steam. I basically think open-source world of linux to me is everything is free for everybody, like world of free stuff where everybody contributes. Sharing knowledge, experiences, projects, and stuff i think should be for everyone, world of linux to me is common good, where me playing the game is me playing the game that everybody can play. I can't really put this in words what i mean.

I basically think all open-source stuff for linux should be for everyone by everyone. While when i use steam services and play steam games, random user like myself can't really contribute to steam games apart from just playing the game and paying for it, because they only care about money, not about good of the user. So while me playing open-source game if i had necessary knowledge i could contribute to it making it better game, while i can;t really contribute to steam games and proprietary software too.
And even if the proprietary game like dota 2 is free to use, i believe users don't have to pay money to be able to play it, but they have to give (sell) their valuable data about themselves to valve. It's same with windows.

I am so used to windows and windows games that right now when iv been on gnu/linux for a while it drives me tits playing these proprietary games, because i feel like instead of wasting my time playing some dota 2 or other mmo, i should read books and get clever. But instead im just playing some dota 2 and steam is running too. And what i mean is using their services to play dota 2 doesn't really contribute to the world of open source gnu/linux in my opinion.

And last month i bought linux format magazine in the uk, and some guy just said he worships CEO of valve, because he gives him games on distro he uses, im like really... I have more like philosphy: Do something by yourself and don't rely on others
I fancy playing some diablo 2 like game i go play open-source flare and see how i like it
If there's something i don't like i report it to the creator, and everybody is happy.
While usually proprietary software developers may tell you they care about what users think, i think they don't really. You can't just get dota 2 and modify it for your own needs, same with any other games.
If i had proper knowledge i'd be just modyfing popular open-source gnu/linux games, however i don't im frankly quite stupid person ;).

Hopefully one day im gonna ditch windows gaming all these proprietary gaming too and just start be 100% open-source person. Right now im too stupid for this, however it is my long-term intention. I wanna play open-source games to make open-source games, while when i play proprietary games i can't really make any game, i spent 15 years playing proprietary windows games and im 24 now and im stupid, they didnt teach me anything.
I miss windows XP and old init debianfork (debian 9) reminds me of windows xp, my experience with systemd distros is i still don't know what's going on there, maybe performance was quite alright, laptop was quiet, however for example manjaro had google dns set by default and that freaked me out.
I understand modern desktops environments look sweet etc. but i don't believe that all these developers who make popular distros don't gather data about their users. I don't think systemd distros are simple to use... While init is quite simple, systemd is like a mystery to me, and it's like relying on systemd instead of relying on myself.
Im not really good in terms of computing, however when i bought this laptop i used windows 10 for like 6 months, then i was testing distros like pureos, fedora, manjaro, antergos, and only made it maximum a week, while on debian fork with init iv been for 10 months and everything is simple and amazing.

So maybe one goal has been accomplished, i quit windows, but what about other proprietary stuff, i wanna quit them too!! And i don't understand why other gnu/linux users don't!!
If people want a game with good graphics made for linux why instead of using steam and their games, why they can't make one by themselves and make it open-source?? For me the knowledge is the reason, if i had proper knowledge how games are made and programmed, i'd probably be programming now, not playing steam games... ;)

Cheers

Rooster commented on 31 October 2018 at 3:08 pm UTC

I'm actually in similar situation as you. Right now, I'm studying programming (2nd year), however one day I would like to develop my own open-source game (or contribute to one) as a hobby or as job. I always prefer Open Source games when given the choice and I play some of them. However, I also play proprietary games. And unfortunately, the most memorable game mechanics I encountered, were in proprietary games and I will definitely use some of them as inspiration for my own games.

So it is not entirely true that playing proprietary games doesn't give you anything, it just does it in much less effective form (instead of code, you get inspiration).

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