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Open-source gaming on gnu linux
mirv commented on 31 October 2018 at 3:32 pm UTC

I'll just add that anyone who can install and use GNU/Linux is _not_ stupid, much less so anyone wanting to learn more and would like to contribute back!

I know it seems daunting at first, but pick something you're interested in and just....begin. Poke, play around, ask questions - whatever keeps your interest. And I do heartily recommend getting involved in open source projects.

Acrophobic commented on 31 October 2018 at 5:52 pm UTC

Geez, this is long. And like @rooster said :

Rooster... (this thread) trying to discuss many topics at once and it is becoming a mess.
By the way, if you want to ask for other people's opinions, it might be better to introduce your background first. That way, people can give a suitable opinion or advice depending on your case.

With that said, since you haven't given us your background, I will try to guess it based on your posts, so I apologize beforehand if I'm guessing it wrong. To differentiate between my own guess and your opinion, I will write your own words in bold :

  • You are right now still learning about Linux, and still in the middle of moving away from Windows to Linux.
  • In your opinion, since Linux is an open source project, all application that used in Linux must be open source as well. Or, as you put it: "Shouldn't gnu linux be about open-source??"
  • You believe that proprietary app is useless for Linux, because the proprietary app doesn't contribute anything to the open source community.
  • You can't understand "how playing Steam Games and porting Windows games to Linux contributes to open-source". Especially since playing game by itself is "waste of energy".
  • Because of the previous point, you don't understand why people that using proprietary app is moving away from Windows to Linux, especially since all of those proprietary app and games is working perfectly on Windows. As you said, "Why won't you come back to windows 10 and play the same games without configuring all this stuff and packages ??"
  • You also don't agree when people said that Linux give better control than Windows, because after you tried several distros, you "never felt you have much control over your rig". In your case, you mention that :
    • "Modern linux distros adopted systemd, and it's hard to configure anything on these distros, or it's hard to find a solution for the problem if there's any"
    • "Modern linux distros (like Manjaro) have Google DNS set by default", and you don't like it because Google is evil.
    • "(Linux) feels bloated to me like Windows 10 is, like what the hell is tracker apps on Fedora ??"
  • Because of the points above, you believe that people who uses proprietary app on Linux are hypocrite, because it's the same as saying "It's okay to use proprietary software, where developer has control over you. But it's not right to use proprietary Windows".
  • In the same vein as previous point, you believe that people who play Steam games on Linux are hypocrite as well, because they "won't let Microsoft have control over (their) computer, but let Steam proprietary software have control over (their) computer". Or, as you put it, "God knows what's happening with your PC when you play Steam game.".
  • Because of two points above, you believe that "Linux users are no different from Windows users who pay their money to uncle Gabe Newell and worship him like he was a god cuz he ports games to linux to get bigger market share and more money.".
  • Because of the previous point, you believe that those Linux users are really *REALLY* stupid, because "(they) spend (their) energy and life to play Steam games and Gabe is 5.5b USD net worth now. What about (them)?? Do (they) get something in return from playing these proprietary games??"
  • In other side, you believe that playing open source game are better, because "(when) you play open-source games you learn how the game has been designed and then you can start coding your own games when you get knowledge while having fun too.".
  • You have a dream where Linux is pure open-source, without any proprietary app. Where all apps are "for everyone and by everyone".
  • You have philosophy to "Do something by yourself and don't rely on others". Therefore, "If people want a game with good graphics made for Linux, why instead of using Steam and their games, why they can't make one by themselves and make it open-source??"

... well that's really long, and some point are a bit rude. Let's break it one by one.

First of all, IMHO, the main point of Linux is not the open-source. The main point of Linux is freedom. Not free in beer, but free as free in speech. It's the freedom to do whatever you want inside your own PC. You already experience it by yourself. You don't like Fedora ? You replace it with Debian. You don't like systemd ? You replace it with initv. And the list goes on.

So, is it okay to use proprietary app in Linux ? Of course. I repeat, you are FREE to do whatever you want in your own PC. You want to use proprietary app ? Go for it. You want to crack those proprietary app ? Sure. You want to decompile it and reverse engineer it ? Be my guest, it's your own PC afterall.

Next, proprietary app are not as evil as you think. In case you don't know, many (if not all) of proprietary app developer also working on open source project, and vice versa. I'm one of them. Sometimes while I'm working on my own private project, I create some helper tools that I will be released under open-source license. So why I don't just release my entire private project as open source ? There are several reasons. Sometimes, I just don't want to releas it, and I'm free to do that. Other times, I want to sell the app so I can feed my own family, therefore I don't release it under open source license.

Following point above, the work on Steam Play (it's open source by the way) has bring many good things to Linux and open-source community. You can check the old blog post, because liam already posted it here before.

Next, you might be wondering why I'm using Linux ? It's because Linux fits with what I need. As I said before, I'm developer, and the tooling in Linux is perfect for programmer. The terminal are great. Seriously, Windows still can't hold candle on it. The security is also great, because Linux has a strict rules where only admin (sudo users) that allowed to modify the system. This is why in Linux there are almost no malware and virus, unlike in Windows. Exceptions do exists, like Stuxnet which is created by military to attack Iran's nuclear program. So, I'm moving away from Windows because Linux is better for my case. If I'm not working as programmer, I might not using Linux. If I'm designer, I might use MacOS, and If I'm civil engineer, I will use Windows. Remember, don't use OS because fanatism, but use the best OS for your case.

Next, you said you don't feel you have enough control on your PC when you are using Linux. I'm sorry, but are you serious ? You just said you replaced systemd with initv. You also replaced on Linux distro with other Linux distro easily, without worrying about OS licensing like in Windows or MacOS.

For Manjaro, I've been using for almost two years, and they never set Google DNS as default. Their wiki only shows you *HOW* to set your DNS to Google, but they never set it as default. The wiki is only used as tutorial on how to change DNS server on Manjaro, and you can easily replace it with your preferred DNS server.

For Fedora, that *tracker* app is not some malicious malware as you think. Tracker is filesystem indexer, which index the files on your system so you can search it. It's still buggy though, which is why for some people it's make their system lagging. However, you can easily disable it or remove it entirely.

Next, you said "God knows what's happening with your PC when you play Steam game". Actually, we knows what happened when Steam run on Linux. Remember when I said Linux has great tooling for developer. One of it's great point of Linux is it make debugging and logging app really easy, which make us can learn what happened when an app is running. In fact, there are no magic on how Steam works. It's only web viewer + app downloader + key checker + chat client.

Next, you said (with little modification) those Linux users say that it's okay to use proprietary software, where developer has control over you. But it's not right to use proprietary Windows. Actually, those proprietary developer can't control anything on your Linux PC, unless you allow it to do so. Remember, Linux has strict rules for modifying the system.

Next, I want you to remember one thing. When we pay the game in Steam, we don't pay for Gabe. We pay the developer who spent almost their entire live to create those games. Sure, Gabe Newell receive some money from the transaction between player an game developer. However, you must remember that he get those money because he is the owner and the creator of the marketplace where the developer sell his game. You can think of Gabe as landlord who receive rent money from the game developer.

Next, what do we get from playing proprietary games ? Do we learn anything ? Remember, game is just a tool. You can use it to destroy friendship, you can also use it to befriend a stranger on other side of world. Game can make you stupid, but game can also taught you many thing. Thanks to game, I learn the terror of warfare (This War of Mine ftw). It also helps me to sharpen my skills as programmer (Zachtronics are great). The best of all, it makes me happy, without worrying about bugs or issue that I need to sent. And if you thing making yourself happy is useless and wasting energy, I don't know what else is useful and productive to you.

Next, you wondering "If people want a game with good graphics made for Linux, why instead of using Steam and their games, why they can't make one by themselves and make it open-source??" The answer is: they can't or at least it's really hard to do. And, it's not really about money.

First of all, making a game (or app in general) is stressful. Everytime you use your own app, you will worried that it will crash, or maybe some undocumented bug will happened. In fact, I know some developer who never able to enjoy his own game, because everytime he play his game, he almost automatically flipped from player to game debugger. Once you release it in open-source community, it might not be popular, which make you feel you waste your time making game that nobody likes. If it's become popular, you will receive some crazy feature request, and people might use rudde language when the feature is not as good as they expected.

"But, but, it's open source right. If they want to fix or add some feature, they can do it by yourself." That's not true. At all. Maybe some people will send pull request that fix some issue or add some feature. However, most PR will always bring a new set of problems. It might bring new bugs, or the code is not following guidelines, etc. And, people who submit the bugs are rare, while people that send PR is rarer than that. most people will only play the game for a bit, found some issue, then drop it for eternity.

This is why, I believe open source maintainer is one of the most stressful job in the world. Seriously, I'm kind of in awe to those open source maintainer that manage large communities. This is also why most open source leader is kind of hard-headed.

These problem, while also happened in proprietary app, it's not as stressful as in open source app. In proprietary app, you can decide on yourself which feature to add, without worrying about what other people says. If the gamers don't like it, they will just stop playing your game, you lose your revenue, end of the story. Meanwhile, in open-source, the mass are the one that decides which one to add, you can't reject it as easily, and it's really stressful to handle the mass.

As the closure, please remember there are many open source game that released decade ago. However, from all of those game, the only game with good graphics that you can found is 0.A.D. This shows how hard it is to make a good game. So, I plead to you, please don't badmouth those developer who sell their game as proprietary app in the largest game marketspace in the earth (i.e Steam). In the same vein, don't you dare to calls us hypocrite for supporting (i.e. paying) for their games.

cynicfm commented on 31 October 2018 at 7:16 pm UTC

Okay, well sorry if i sounded rude, i honestly don't like when people are rude towards me on internet cuz because im saying my own opinion, so im sorry if im too rude.
However i have the reasons to be rude, because i read lots of stuff about steam, and i think steam is just another corporation that is taking over the market. Because nowadays every company wants monopoly. Valve wants monopoly as well.

I don't get why you hate microsoft and windows while you like steam and probably using google too. If you hate microsoft why you love steam??
I bought this linux format magazine, and lots of stuff from there is just not for me, because im on debian 9 (stretch) fork. So i feel like i use old linux and there's something like new linux now.
Last week i logged in to your irc channel or maybe that was #bumblebee and i asked for support for optimus or something couldn't run. Some guy said some systemctl command im like wtf is systemctl
I basically have got issues with running games like Diablo 3 under Optirun on wine-staging 3.17. I managed to get in running on older wine-staging version. And i can run it under intel integrated but on optirun i get crash. And it's not just this game, some of them are okay under optirun runescape 3 windows client is fine under optirun, steam games run as well (optirun %command%). However b.net app or diablo 3 app crashes, same with torchlight 1 that i downloaded. I don't really know why...

QuoteSo, I plead to you, please don't badmouth those developer who sell their game as proprietary app in the largest game marketspace in the earth (i.e Steam). In the same vein, don't you dare to calls us hypocrite for supporting (i.e. paying) for their games.

Ugh, i have never had intention to offend anybody. However i don't think windows 10 is bad at all. And also macOs for designing is bad thing to do. People also think that macbooks are best for music, im like really. Im gonna make music, edit music, mix it and do all stuff related to music on gnu/linux because software for it is free and open-source (okay maybe there are plugins that aren't free). While anybody else, any other musician uses macbooks and they end up using the same software, end up having the same sound etc. etc.. while i can use open-source ardour and open-source audacity and if i have knowledge i can make them just like my version and there's going to be sound that im only gonna use. If open-source and free music software wouldn't exist, it would have been really bad. I downloaded ardour and i can use it how i want, while other people like yourself (that get macbook for design) gonna get macbook for 1000 pounds, pay 200 pounds a month?? for pro tools licence and then apart from this apple is grabbing all data about them what they do.

So if you use gnu/linux why would you use mac for design, and please don't use word job or work. This is another reason why i think it's waste of time to go to uni, because they don't teach you using free and open-source software and linux (where is school they teach you using unix then im going there) instead you use proprietary software with proprietary apple. One and i believe the only reason why i use Gnu/Linux over windows 10 is because i don't like to be spied and cracked by devs without my permission. I transfered myself into linux to stop people getting into my system and gather data about me so they can sell it later and im still fking poor end-user, and they r money grabbing bi***s, not only you have to pay 200 dollars for new windows you also have to pay 1200 dollars for NEW GENERATION OF MACBOOK that not only you have to pay 3 times more its worth, apple and microsoft also spy on you.
So because of this, i also dislike and i don't want to steam and other proprietary software guys spy on me and gather data on me because i play some game. It shouldn't be allowed, i wanna play the game and why somebody needs to know what's my ip, what's my system setup, how old i am, my e-mail, location where i am connecting from and even worse my net browsing history?? Is that gnu/linux philosphy??
Why linuxers like themselves to be controlled by proprietary developers and they can't do nothing about it????
I understand that my laptop has some intel management engines and it's not fully secure but well... I bought fking wrong laptop for linux then!!!

I understand that b.net blizzard isn't any different from valve... However i wanted to play Diablo 3 and windows 10 had to many blaas in processes so i realised games should be better on linux because it doesn't have that much stuff...
I don't like the todays philosphy the more money you give us the better stuff you'll get.
I bought headphones 8-35k frequencies ultrasone pro 750i in local music shop for 80 pounds whereas i paid 200 pounds for some shit beats in huge retail market currys, that sound worse, and r loud kill your ears and cracked 3 times (had to replace headband). I think its same with computers nowadays, producers and vendors they steal money from people, why bill gates is 90b dollars net worth and every windows user is poorer than him?? It's same with valve and steam, you don't like microsoft but don't you know that Gaben worked in microsoft for like 16 years...

I am not fan of gnu/linuxers worshipping gabe newell from steam. I agree with him that linux is future of gaming though, because i think that too and i thought that even before i heard him saying this in some interview. So for this thumbs up, but it doesn't change the fact that steam is evil, and gnu/linux users worship Gaben, because he wants to make some more money porting games to linux????

You also have said that gaben doesn't get money for steam games, i think you're wrong. Why gaben has 5,5b net worth then?? I basically think steam has licences for games and they can give you them for free, steam users are like wallets.
I don't really like fact that people who use gnu/linux hate windows and microsoft, but like steam and other corporations...
And if im gonna say windows 10 is better for games than linux what you gonna do, attack me??

And why do you think writing open-source is stressful?? I'll write you the way i see it, im bored i have lots of time and i can code. I manage to write simple open-source software and why would i care if people gonna like it or not?? It's same with music, why would i care if people gonna like my music??

Because you mentioned macbook for design, im gonna say iv wanted a macbook for so long for making music, but uh... no. I realised gnu/linux is much better. And it wouldn't be much better if there wasn't any open-source and free music softwares. I believe the same case with games, if people would ever never create open-source games for linux, what would you play on it?? Only steam games??
If somebody wouldn't write free and open-source software that comes preinstalled with linux, what would you use??? So why u pay dollars to uncle Gabe but won't pay money to Uncle Bill from M$??? They're not any different... ;/

So because other people put effort making free open-source games non-profit, im gonna play them and even support them. Id rather send 200 dollars donation to some guy for liking their game than give 2 dollars to billionaire gabe newell.
New developers who make games and wants to make some money they need to worship gaben. Is the same thing gonna happen with linux, majority of linux users gonna only use steam games. Then i don't wanna be associated with these linux users... Really i use gnu/linux but i don't google nor youtube nor love gaben newell and all this bollocks just pisses me off.

And it's not just steam. I don't trust proprietary software at all.

QuoteI know it seems daunting at first, but pick something you're interested in and just....begin. Poke, play around, ask questions - whatever keeps your interest. And I do heartily recommend getting involved in open source projects.

Yeah i am gonna . I have always been fan of diablo 2, so flare reminds me of it. Sooner or later i'm gonna get into it, when im gonna become bored with dota 2 or runescape ;).
Thanks for nice answers anyway

Have a nice day

RoosterI'm actually in similar situation as you. Right now, I'm studying programming (2nd year), however one day I would like to develop my own open-source game (or contribute to one) as a hobby or as job. I always prefer Open Source games when given the choice and I play some of them. However, I also play proprietary games. And unfortunately, the most memorable game mechanics I encountered, were in proprietary games and I will definitely use some of them as inspiration for my own games.

So it is not entirely true that playing proprietary games doesn't give you anything, it just does it in much less effective form (instead of code, you get inspiration).

Oh yeah, that's very true. Not able not to agree with that

debianxfce commented on 1 November 2018 at 10:43 am UTC

cynicfmIv never seen laptop in a shop preinstalled with linux or without OS...

Here is 108 laptops listed with Linux or without OS:linux laptops

cynicfm commented on 1 November 2018 at 12:50 pm UTC

Hey

It's internet shop not physical shop, have you ever seen linux laptops in places like walmart or other chain retail markets?? Where they sell laptops designed for gnu/linux??

debianxfce commented on 1 November 2018 at 1:36 pm UTC

cynicfmHey

It's internet shop not physical shop, have you ever seen linux laptops in places like walmart or other chain retail markets?? Where they sell laptops designed for gnu/linux??

It has physical shops.

cynicfm commented on 1 November 2018 at 4:39 pm UTC

Oh nice.

Well it seems like im gonna have go to germany to buy my next laptop, hahah .
In united kingdom or poland iv never seen any linux laptops anywhere...
Polish supermarkets sell optimus graphics cards bollocks, it can be problematic on gnu/linux

ageres commented on 1 November 2018 at 5:04 pm UTC

I see laptops in physical shops with Ubuntu (Dell) or without OS (some cheap models by Chinese brands).

lucinos commented on 1 November 2018 at 6:23 pm UTC

cynicfmOh nice.

Well it seems like im gonna have go to germany to buy my next laptop, hahah .
In united kingdom or poland iv never seen any linux laptops anywhere...
Polish supermarkets sell optimus graphics cards bollocks, it can be problematic on gnu/linux

I think Entroware is in UK or I am wrong?
https://www.entroware.com/store/laptops
they are quite expensive :/ but nice specs!

unfortunately there are no real options for a cheap linux laptop, only you buy something with no-os and you install it yourself. And I have a very bad opinion about Dell.

cynicfm commented on 29 November 2018 at 11:45 am UTC

Hey

Yeah these laptops seem nice, but my laptop is not that bad apart from optimus nvidia GPU that they told me its very good, but it is not really. I am not fan of proprietary software neither i wanna install proprietary nvidia drivers. I use nouveau ones.

but at the moment i use Artix Linux distro, it is arch based distro but systemd free, and so far things r great .
It's a shame that so many linux users play steam games and devs distribute their games on steam
I always thought that linux is about freedom, but what kind of freedom steam is??

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