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Latest Comments by mirv
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19 January 2019 at 9:30 pm UTC Likes: 2

I regret not being in the position of contributing more (financially, or otherwise), but I can definitely continue to say that I enjoy the site, the community, and will look forward to see what 2019 brings.
Keep it up!

Steam Play versus Linux Version, a little performance comparison and more thoughts
19 January 2019 at 3:51 pm UTC Likes: 5

Comandante Ñoñardo
liamdawe
Beamboom
thykrIt baffles me that non-native is much faster than native.

I really hope someday some smart software engineers will be able to explain why it is that way.

It's because none of them are really native, they all (including Feral & Co) use wrapper libraries. So to call those releases "ports" are really quite misleading.
Feral said they actually rewrote the rendering system for Rise of the Tomb Raider...

If it's made to run on another platform, it's a port.

If they can change things, I wonder why they didn't added linux exclusive features to the game, like press whatever button for 1st person view.

Feral is a porting house, not a developer. And contracts might be rather specific - maybe they can port, publish, but not change how the game is played.
Also, hard enough to ensure existing features work without adding new ones.
Those are my guesses.

Steam Play versus Linux Version, a little performance comparison and more thoughts
19 January 2019 at 9:58 am UTC Likes: 1

Beamboom
thykrIt baffles me that non-native is much faster than native.

I really hope someday some smart software engineers will be able to explain why it is that way.

It's because none of them are really native, they all (including Feral & Co) use wrapper libraries. So to call those releases "ports" are really quite misleading.

Well, most games probably have some kind of abstraction over the rendering API anyway. And most porting might use some library for the bulk of the work, but I think extra tweaks are made where necessary outside of that.

Steam Play versus Linux Version, a little performance comparison and more thoughts
18 January 2019 at 7:48 pm UTC Likes: 3

thykrIt baffles me that non-native is much faster than native.

I really hope someday some smart software engineers will be able to explain why it is that way.

I'm sure someone will beat my slow tapping, but the short version is that OpenGL would dictate single threaded designs, which can severely impact performance over something that can properly multi-thread.

DXVK can let non-native use Vulkan instead, which can be more properly threaded.

That's a very, very simplified overview.

Steam Play versus Linux Version, a little performance comparison and more thoughts
18 January 2019 at 7:09 pm UTC Likes: 3

ThormackSo, would it be better for Linux if every company that wants to release a Linux port would instead help Steam to tweak Steam Play to run the game as smooth as possible?

I believe that could work.
I just feel like the games would always be more unstable/buggy than a proper port, I hope I am wrong.

That doesn't help games not on Steam. Besides, it really depends on the port. Feral's recent work will beat "Proton", for example. And that kind of porting should be encouraged.
Ultimately, better stability & performance from Unity3D, Unreal (don't see Epic helping there though), would be better.
And then there's benefit in not having games rely on always catching up to whatever Microsoft are dictating (which can well happen).

Don't get me wrong, wine, "Proton", whatever have their place, but aren't the way forward for all gaming.

Another Steam Client Beta is out, adds the ability to force Steam Play
18 January 2019 at 3:42 pm UTC

Imants
mirv
Eike
mirvSorry, but I didn't see many giving actual reasons. Some gave "reasons" of something that was already possible, in my experience, which was why I asked: why be excited when it could already be done? TheDaftRick pointed out much I hadn't thought of, and liamdawe had a couple things too.

As I'm wondering if you seen it, I'll repost mine:

EikeWhile I got more concerns than being excited about Proton (and neither use WINE nor Proton for gaming), Proton..
* is easier to use,
* makes games count as Linux sale and
* offers Valve's support for the whitelisted games.

Those particulars got lost in the text. Takes me time on this phone to reply too.

While I might debate easier to use (just my opinion), and I do wonder how big of an impact the other points make, they are indeed worth considering.
If Valve refund for a whitelisted game not working, or what they do if a game stops working, remains to be seen - especially if there's a native version that's not playable, or only barely functional by comparison. Too early to tell. But, indeed, something to consider beyond just technically running a game via wine.

Do not forget that many people (including me) just hate wine as brand it self. And I can totally relate with that. Because when I hear word wine I shrug and remember all those times when I tried to fiddle with it and nothing worked at all and I just gave up. Now my experience with proton was much more better and it is not associated in my mind with something bad. That is why hearing abount new wine version I feel nothing but hearing about proton updates I feel joy.

I guess I can understand that, but equally that very statement makes me sad. It's most certainly not right, but it is perhaps necessary to have running games via wine more accepted.
At least Valve are contributing (financially if nothing else, and financials are not to be sneezed at) back upstream.

Another Steam Client Beta is out, adds the ability to force Steam Play
18 January 2019 at 3:21 pm UTC Likes: 2

Eike
mirvSorry, but I didn't see many giving actual reasons. Some gave "reasons" of something that was already possible, in my experience, which was why I asked: why be excited when it could already be done? TheDaftRick pointed out much I hadn't thought of, and liamdawe had a couple things too.

As I'm wondering if you seen it, I'll repost mine:

EikeWhile I got more concerns than being excited about Proton (and neither use WINE nor Proton for gaming), Proton..
* is easier to use,
* makes games count as Linux sale and
* offers Valve's support for the whitelisted games.

Those particulars got lost in the text. Takes me time on this phone to reply too.

While I might debate easier to use (just my opinion), and I do wonder how big of an impact the other points make, they are indeed worth considering.
If Valve refund for a whitelisted game not working, or what they do if a game stops working, remains to be seen - especially if there's a native version that's not playable, or only barely functional by comparison. Too early to tell. But, indeed, something to consider beyond just technically running a game via wine.

Another Steam Client Beta is out, adds the ability to force Steam Play
18 January 2019 at 3:13 pm UTC

jardon
mirv
jardon
mirvThat mirv guy was told to get his eyes checked for not agreeing. I didn't see it as a joke and asked it to be dropped. It was not.

No, I'm being told my opinion is wrong, without being told why. I suspected a case of "because Valve", and planted a few words to check....and it seems that way in some cases.
But not others. There have been a couple replies of normality, some reasons I hadn't considered. Might I highlight them?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that? I'm not going to say that others havent reacted poorly. I'm not gonna argue that others arent in the wrong too. But let me just play out the scenario for you.

mirv: why not use wine?
others: **reasons**
mir: why not use wine?
others: **reasons**
mir: why not use wine?
others: why are you being like this?? (plus some less than favorable responses)
mir: why are you saying im wrong?

Arent you pretty much saying that others opinions are wrong by ignoring their points? People have said plenty of times that it being built in to steam is easier for them and for many many people. I, like many others, hate touching wine. Good for you in that you mastered it. Your responses (or lack thereof) clearly aren't encouraging civil discussions.

Everyone (including myself), lets take a step back and try to learn and become better members of the community to try to mitigate further encounters like this.

Sorry, but I didn't see many giving actual reasons. Some gave "reasons" of something that was already possible, in my experience, which was why I asked: why be excited when it could already be done? TheDaftRick pointed out much I hadn't thought of, and liamdawe had a couple things too.
I've not mastered wine. Vanilla, latest release, and sometimes I try git. I would like to know why I'm ok with it (technically speaking), while others might not be - or maybe they're getting something extra from "Proton" that I'm not seeing. Which are the main reasons why I ask.

i think that in most cases (and in mine specifically) its just a hassle. most people come from windows or mac and just want to click and install things. and while ive been using linux for quite a while, sometimes having to learn all new systems just to use simple programs is just exhausting. there are times where im totally down for putting in the effort to learn something new and tinker, but even i just feel like having everything just work sometimes. while you may have streamlined youre setup and configurations for wine, most of us havent and would have to invest a significant amount of time to get to where you are.

That being said. Thanks for responding to TheDaftRick. I know we can all be a pain to deal with sometimes. I've gotten in my fair share of arguments with some of the people here. Lets all keep working on respecting each other and putting our pride aside. Cheers mate

Just to keep onto the original topic, the real interesting thing to me now is Big Picture mode. As you say, users just pushing a button and it working does count, so I wonder what kind of interface might be used to select if a game is played "native", or through a "compatibility layer" (whatever wine base is used). Of course this isn't Steam specific, but I would imagine someone at Valve is thinking about the UI, and that might end up being copied by similar setups. Or vice-versa. Whatever works.

Another Steam Client Beta is out, adds the ability to force Steam Play
18 January 2019 at 2:53 pm UTC

jardon
mirvThat mirv guy was told to get his eyes checked for not agreeing. I didn't see it as a joke and asked it to be dropped. It was not.

No, I'm being told my opinion is wrong, without being told why. I suspected a case of "because Valve", and planted a few words to check....and it seems that way in some cases.
But not others. There have been a couple replies of normality, some reasons I hadn't considered. Might I highlight them?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that? I'm not going to say that others havent reacted poorly. I'm not gonna argue that others arent in the wrong too. But let me just play out the scenario for you.

mirv: why not use wine?
others: **reasons**
mir: why not use wine?
others: **reasons**
mir: why not use wine?
others: why are you being like this?? (plus some less than favorable responses)
mir: why are you saying im wrong?

Arent you pretty much saying that others opinions are wrong by ignoring their points? People have said plenty of times that it being built in to steam is easier for them and for many many people. I, like many others, hate touching wine. Good for you in that you mastered it. Your responses (or lack thereof) clearly aren't encouraging civil discussions.

Everyone (including myself), lets take a step back and try to learn and become better members of the community to try to mitigate further encounters like this.

Sorry, but I didn't see many giving actual reasons. Some gave "reasons" of something that was already possible, in my experience, which was why I asked: why be excited when it could already be done? TheDaftRick pointed out much I hadn't thought of, and liamdawe had a couple things too.
I've not mastered wine. Vanilla, latest release, and sometimes I try git. I would like to know why I'm ok with it (technically speaking), while others might not be - or maybe they're getting something extra from "Proton" that I'm not seeing. Which are the main reasons why I ask.

Another Steam Client Beta is out, adds the ability to force Steam Play
18 January 2019 at 2:42 pm UTC Likes: 1

TheDaftRick
mirv
kuhpunkt
mirv
kuhpunkt
mirv
kuhpunkt
mirvStill not sure how this is any better than just firing up Steam itself through wine. I could already "force" a game to use wine that way. And choose various wine settings. And use an up-to-date wine. And it's not limited to Steam games.

But it's annoying to set up. One click solution is the key word. That's the way to attract people that have no idea how to setup Wine and whatnot.

mirvSo is this all still just a convenience thing for some people? I don't see that personally. I'm otherwise confused by the sudden excitement and "now game xyz can be played" when it was already possible for quite some time.

Maybe it's just me seeing things a little differently.

If you can't see the convenience factor, you might want to get your eyes checked out

And there is a lot of sudden excitement, because things now just work, not just because of Proton, but because of all the building blocks that Valve encouraged, DXVK, FAudio etc, networking issues fixed etc...

Wow, that wasn't condescending at all. Maybe you need to learn how to use your computer better?

How is any of what I said/wrote condescending?

mirvI don't find needing a beta version and manually going through options in Steam for each game to use an outdated wine. Against just logging in from one shortcut or another.

That's because at the moment it's just a beta - that doesn't even need you to go through options and all that stuff.

A) re-read your own words. About getting eyes checked. Then consider how you might be coming across.
B) game options must be accessed. See the article for that information.

A) There's a - meaning I'm teasing/joking.

B) Only for specific cases, WHICH IS STILL IN BETA

Then for future reference: teasing, joking, or poking a bit of fun, are not taken the same way by everyone. Obviously in this case. Let's agree to just forget about that all now?

Ok, still beta, but that doesn't change my original confusion: why the excitement over something that could already be done, and could be done for some time already? If I'm not clear, I honestly don't understand. By similar comparison, it's like people being excited that phone X can do something that all other phones could already do. I don't see what makes it so much more special now.
I suspect this is something that, like the craze of selfies, I'm not destined to understand.

1. Convience:
-Don't need to restart Steam constantly to play different games.
-Less Steam directories (all your games in the same steamapps folder)
-Steam chat won't be interrupted while restarting Steam.
-Able to view all your installed games without switching.
-Much easier to setup(just select Proton with the biggest number) especially when considering Staging, tkg, DXVK, esync, PBA, 32/64bit, and Proton's other patches
2. Stability - Running the Steam client through Wine can sometimes have stability issues (crashes and dropdown menus freezing)
3. Steam Overlay - Doesn't work while running the Steam client through Wine
4. Steam Controller Configuration - Doesn't work while running the Steam client through Wine
5. Steam Big Picture - Doesn't work while running the Steam client through Wine

1. Ok, but I didn't see that as an issue (restart). Didn't think it would be done often enough - but, I presume you do. That's actually quite informative to me.
Viewing installed games, same deal. I hadn't thought of that - choose what to remove to free some space perhaps?
I don't personally have setup issues, so I can't relate to that point.
2. Ok, again, never had that as a problem. Can't relate. Which version of wine, or all versions?
3. Huh. I'll check that in just over a week when back at my main system.
4. Another point I didn't think on. Cheers.
5. Ah. Big picture. Never worked properly outside of wine either, so never bothered via wine and forgot about it. Now this is a really good point, and does indeed make a difference where it's used. Cheers.

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