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Pretty interesting update from Linus --
Doc Angelo commented on 6 October 2018 at 5:00 pm UTC

tuubiSo, in a discussion about the Linux kernel, you once again point to a document that has nothing to do with it. That part of the template was not included in the Linux kernel Code of Conduct. Indeed there's no mention of pronouns at all in it.

I disagree on your assessment that this has nothing to do with the situation.

(The part I quoted isn't in their template either. It's part of the explanation of the ideology behind all that.)

tuubiIf you don't know the proper pronoun for someone, it's easy to avoid using any gendered pronoun at all on a technical board. Use their name or "they" for example. Easy.

And if you do know, deliberately using the wrong pronoun is not cool. I'm sure you can agree on that. If I tell you I'm male and you still insist on referring to me as "she", it would be a deliberate discourtesy and deserves to be treated as such. Not that I'd care much personally, but some people do care and it's their right to care.

As I said above, not using these terms is not the same as deliberately insulting someone. I walked this earth for 40 years now and there always was the same pattern for me: Looks like a girl? I call the person "she". Looks like a boy? I call the person "he". That's "built-in" into my language usage. It comes out without even thinking about it. It's learned behavior. I can't "easily" stop doing that. That's not how brains work. I can do that, and as I said, I can choose to put effort into doing that. I also recognize that putting that effort into my language will eventually change it and it will become natural after some time. But all this doesn't mean that not doing it becomes "bad".

I strongly disagree with the view that not doing that is "treating someone bad" or "discriminating someone". It's absolutely not like that. As soon as you pretty much force others to use that language, you are being intolerant. That's all I can say about that.

And in the context of all this it's important to note: We don't have to agree on that. We should be able to coexist in a community while not sharing the same view on this particular topic.

tuubi commented on 6 October 2018 at 6:39 pm UTC

Doc Angelo
tuubiSo, in a discussion about the Linux kernel, you once again point to a document that has nothing to do with it. That part of the template was not included in the Linux kernel Code of Conduct. Indeed there's no mention of pronouns at all in it.

I disagree on your assessment that this has nothing to do with the situation.
Why?


Doc Angelo(The part I quoted isn't in their template either. It's part of the explanation of the ideology behind all that.)
First of all, you seem to be discussing the ideology (and personal details) of the author of the template document, which might or might not coincide with that of the people who wrote the Linux kernel CoC. And secondly, the ideology only matters when it negatively affects reality. Good things can be done for the (subjectively) wrong reasons.


Doc AngeloI walked this earth for 40 years now and there always was the same pattern for me: Looks like a girl? I call the person "she". Looks like a boy? I call the person "he". That's "built-in" into my language usage. It comes out without even thinking about it. It's learned behavior. I can't "easily" stop doing that. That's not how brains work.
I guess you're just unusually inflexible. I've mistaken someone's gender. Usually a child's. I've had no trouble adjusting when it has been pointed out to me. And I have even less trouble when the discussion happens over the internet, where all I see are words on the screen and maybe a tiny avatar image that might or might not represent the person. We're the same age by the way if you think that matters.

Also, why are we still discussing pronouns?

Doc AngeloAnd in the context of all this it's important to note: We don't have to agree on that. We should be able to coexist in a community while not sharing the same view on this particular topic.
Sure we can. I hope my blunt style of communication (and occasional frustration) doesn't seem hostile. That's not my intention. Just chalk it up to me being a Finn or something.

Doc Angelo commented on 6 October 2018 at 6:54 pm UTC

tuubiI've mistaken someone's gender. Usually a child's. I've had no trouble adjusting when it has been pointed out to me.

That's absolutely not what I meant. Sorry, but not even remotely. I think I'll leave it at that. Communication between the both of us doesn't seem to work out well enough for such a topic.

tuubiSure we can. I hope my blunt style of communication (and occasional frustration) doesn't seem hostile. That's not my intention. Just chalk it up to me being a Finn or something.

No sweat. I didn't get the notion that you are being hostile to me. We just seem to work quite differently at these things. That shouldn't be a problem.

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