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Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By Ananace, 3 June 2020 at 11:05 am UTC Likes: 2

I applaud Mint's stance on that users should get what they expect. If I were to install an APT package, then I definitely wouldn't expect that to result in a Snap being installed.

In regards to Snaps as a packaging format though, I can't really say much about it from a user point of view.
The non-Ubuntu support is still flaky enough that I can't get an up to date version, and would also need to compile my own kernel as well just to be able to use the outdated version that's available.

I've been using Flatpak and AppImage instead though, both have been quite great from a user point of view. Though Flatpak applications have integrated much better with the system as a whole than the AppImages, so it gets a gold star in that regard.
Personally, I feel that Flatpak definitely wins the developer use-case though, writing flatpak-builder manifests has been a joy compared to most other packaging I've done.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By CatKiller, 3 June 2020 at 10:47 am UTC

scaineIt should be, but this is all about money.

It is, but not really for the reasons you're thinking of. A tiny indie developer benefits more than a massive AAA developer does from all the infrastructure that Steam provides. A big multiplat release is going to have their own matchmaking, their own support chain, their own marketing, their own forums, and so on, outside of Steam, so there's less of a value proposition for Valve's cut than is the case for the indie, and supporting a million players in one container is cheaper for Valve than a thousand containers with a thousand players in, so there's scope to lower the rates.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By GBee, 3 June 2020 at 10:42 am UTC

CatKiller
DedaleMy main grip with snap was when it installed chromium on my Kubuntu 19.10 it was slower to start. Even with a SSD.


Yep. First run startup of a graphical application is slow. It needs to set up an entire environment of all the things that the application expects to be there to keep it isolated from the actual environment.

This is the wider issue with containers and containerisation. It's something of a battle I'm fighting at work right now as some people in the company have been bitten by the container bug as a solution for realtime scaling. They haven't considering the startup penalty and we've already demonstrated it to be significant in some cases. I mean it's preferable to scaling with VMs for so many reasons, but it's not the solution to every problem.

I would agree on the whole that containerisation is not, and should not be the universal solution for every distro and certainly not the choice for a power user or developers distro. There are good arguments for it to be used by the likes of Ubuntu though, a beginner-friendly distro or in at least one server-centric distribution.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By TimeFreeze, 3 June 2020 at 10:34 am UTC Likes: 1

scaine
TimeFreeze
TheSHEEEP
TimeFreezePersonally i think 30% is perfectly fine for AAA devs. I however think that Steam [and other Stores] could lower that Cut for Indie devs.
Funny enough, it is actually the other way around. AAA devs regularly negotiate a lower cut with Valve. Which in itself actually proves the cut Valve usually takes is higher than it needs to be.
Indies don't have that kind of power to negotiate with, unfortunately.

There's also this, which strongly favors AAA to begin with:
https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-new-revenue-sharing-favours-big-budget-games-and-indie-devs-arent-happy/

Hah interesting, didnt know that. Well that sucks of course. Should definitly be the other way around.

It should be, but this is all about money. Steam don't really want to encourage more indies - they want to stop AAA's going elsewhere. Indies definitely get a rough deal with Steam and I don't blame any indie that takes an Epic deal. But I'll happily blacklist any AAA dev/pub that does so.

Could not agree more. i mean i still wont use/buy anything from Epic but i can understand why Indie devs take the Epic deal. But the AAA devs just want even more money so to the blacklist they go! [Indie devs probably go there also but only and ONLY if they for some reason promised a Steam version and then just swap it with an Epic Version yes i'm looking at [insert any dev from a crowdfunding project].

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By CatKiller, 3 June 2020 at 10:33 am UTC Likes: 1

DedaleMy main grip with snap was when it installed chromium on my Kubuntu 19.10 it was slower to start. Even with a SSD.


Yep. First run startup of a graphical application is slow. It needs to set up an entire environment of all the things that the application expects to be there to keep it isolated from the actual environment.

The other big one is that, because the application is sandboxed and the default permissions are quite conservative, users don't have access to the files that they expect to from within a snap application.

QuoteAlso i do not get The point of snaps and flatpacks for open-source software well integrated in the distro. They are maybe less up-to-date but they take less disk space.


For normally-supported stuff, don't use snaps. Just use your normal package manager and get normal package manager updates.

But people want new stuff, even new open source stuff. Containerised applications are much better, and much more discoverable, than plonking on some PPA.

QuoteFor commercial software that is compiled once and not updated i understand better.

This is the big win. Users can find commercial software in the same place that they find open source software, and it all gets updated the same, without developers having to worry about fragmentation or library incompatibilities, or any of the other things that might scare them away.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By GBee, 3 June 2020 at 10:32 am UTC

Yeah, reading more around the issue, this seems likely a completely flawed argument, and even back-firing argument by the Mint packagers. They argue that because Canonical builds the Snap packages they are proprietary, yet if the Mint team built the packages they are not. From the end-user perspective there is no difference - both are building packages that have to be decompiled in order to see what is actually in them.

What the Mint packagers seem most concerned about is their own demise. If the world moves to Snap then there will be less opportunity for them to screw with code before it reaches the end user. This is a future I can get behind, but ONLY IF the building of the Snap is done by the original application developers.

As a developer, we've long battled the packagers to get them to properly and faithfully provide their end users with the application we've poured thousands of hours of time into. Instead, many distributions quietly make changes of their own to the code before shipping a usually broken version under the name of the original. Because end users are usually unaware that they are getting something that's been modified by the packager they blame resulting bugs on the Devs and the product reputation suffers. The more public battles that resulted in the likes of IceFox (Firefox modified by Debian packagers) are just the tip of the iceberg.

Of course the source code remains open, and Mint packagers (amongst others) will remain free to create their own versions, but it will be much clearer that these aren't the original unmodified package as they would be required to change the package name to avoid collisions.

All in all, if they are arguing for greater transparency for end users, they are arguing against their own existence.

Now as a Dev I do have my own issues with Snap - namely that a full Snap distribution makes building and testing out changes much harder. I for one wouldn't want to use a Snap based distro for that reason, it would make my life significantly more difficult.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By Patola, 3 June 2020 at 10:30 am UTC

CatKiller
KaDargoyou're allowing a third party to have total access to your system even if you're using them from Mint, Fedora, Manjaro... they're a big security risk.
As opposed to PPAs?
Yes. The granularity/heterogenity of PPAs is commonly poised as a disadvantage, but here they are an advantage, because you can disable/enable the sources individually. You have granular control in who you decide to trust.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By scaine, 3 June 2020 at 10:29 am UTC Likes: 1

TimeFreeze
TheSHEEEP
TimeFreezePersonally i think 30% is perfectly fine for AAA devs. I however think that Steam [and other Stores] could lower that Cut for Indie devs.
Funny enough, it is actually the other way around. AAA devs regularly negotiate a lower cut with Valve. Which in itself actually proves the cut Valve usually takes is higher than it needs to be.
Indies don't have that kind of power to negotiate with, unfortunately.

There's also this, which strongly favors AAA to begin with:
https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-new-revenue-sharing-favours-big-budget-games-and-indie-devs-arent-happy/

Hah interesting, didnt know that. Well that sucks of course. Should definitly be the other way around.

It should be, but this is all about money. Steam don't really want to encourage more indies - they want to stop AAA's going elsewhere. Indies definitely get a rough deal with Steam and I don't blame any indie that takes an Epic deal. But I'll happily blacklist any AAA dev/pub that does so.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By TimeFreeze, 3 June 2020 at 10:24 am UTC

TheSHEEEP
TimeFreezePersonally i think 30% is perfectly fine for AAA devs. I however think that Steam [and other Stores] could lower that Cut for Indie devs.
Funny enough, it is actually the other way around. AAA devs regularly negotiate a lower cut with Valve. Which in itself actually proves the cut Valve usually takes is higher than it needs to be.
Indies don't have that kind of power to negotiate with, unfortunately.

There's also this, which strongly favors AAA to begin with:
https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-new-revenue-sharing-favours-big-budget-games-and-indie-devs-arent-happy/

Hah interesting, didnt know that. Well that sucks of course. Should definitly be the other way around.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By CatKiller, 3 June 2020 at 10:23 am UTC Likes: 1

KaDargoyou're allowing a third party to have total access to your system even if you're using them from Mint, Fedora, Manjaro... they're a big security risk.

As opposed to PPAs?

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By Dedale, 3 June 2020 at 10:20 am UTC Likes: 1

My main gripe with snap was when it installed chromium on my Kubuntu 19.10 it was slower to start. Even with a SSD.

Also i do not get The point of snaps and flatpacks for open-source software well integrated in the distro. They are maybe less up-to-date but they take less disk space. For commercial software that is compiled once and not updated i understand better.

But i confess my knowledge of such things is lacking.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By KaDargo, 3 June 2020 at 10:20 am UTC Likes: 2

CatKiller
GBeeMaybe I need more coffee, but I've no clue what "Snaps are more locked-down as they compared it to using proprietary software, it pushes Ubuntu directly and Snaps are done in the background." means?

Perhaps I should read the original for elucidation. The above explanation has severely confused me

It's Liam's summary of Mint's position, but it's hard to make it clear because Mint's position is just argle bargle.

In Ubuntu chromium is distributed (by default - you can still use a PPA) as a snap, for the reasons Liam linked to. Snaps have a central repository that Canonical pays for and maintains, for the reasons listed in the video I linked to, but other developers can put their stuff on there.

These things have made the Mint people Very Angry.

There are issues with snaps, but they aren't the ones that people get Very Angry about.

What made them very angry is Canonical stealthily forcing people to use snaps even when they think they're installing something different (the case with Chromium), that snaps are completely centralized and under Canonical's control and no one can see or change what or when they update, that in most cases the snap packages aren't even made by the developers of the applications but by third parties and sometimes it's not even entirely clear if they are Canonical employees or not, and also that you're allowing a third party to have total access to your system even if you're using them from Mint, Fedora, Manjaro... they're a big security risk. There's so much wrong about how snaps work that I can't even begin to understand how anyone in the Linux community would want to use them.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By TheSHEEEP, 3 June 2020 at 10:15 am UTC

TimeFreezePersonally i think 30% is perfectly fine for AAA devs. I however think that Steam [and other Stores] could lower that Cut for Indie devs.
Funny enough, it is actually the other way around.

Edit:
There's this, which strongly favors AAA to begin with, I just remembered it as AAA devs getting a better cut to begin with (not that the end result is that much different):
https://www.pcgamer.com/valves-new-revenue-sharing-favours-big-budget-games-and-indie-devs-arent-happy/

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By g000h, 3 June 2020 at 10:13 am UTC Likes: 1

Well, it's a good result as far as I'm concerned. Not a fan of alternative packaging systems. I just like to use the main one for the operating system, i.e. APT for Debian (and Debian clones) and RPM for Redhat (and clones).

Looking further into Snap myself, I notice that it adopts an update schedule very similar to Windows 10, i.e. Preventing the end-user from halting updates if they want to do so. Also Snaps introduce a bunch of file system mounts i.e. one extra mount point for each Snap which is active. No need to complain that you can turn this stuff off or hide it if you want to - My point about these two aspects is that it is the default behaviour and it is fiddly to deactivate.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By TimeFreeze, 3 June 2020 at 10:12 am UTC

Its funny how no one ever said anything about the 30% cut before Epic came with its Store. And now Steam and every other Platform/Store is the bad guy? Personally i think 30% is perfectly fine for AAA devs. I however think that Steam [and other Stores] could lower that Cut for Indie devs.

And personally i dont care how much Free Games Epic throws out for the Users weekly. Or now with TROY free for the first 24H. I never used the Epic Store and i will never use it. I will stay with Steam/GoG/Itch [and my Consoles].

The Linux market share still appears to be rising
By Ardje, 3 June 2020 at 10:11 am UTC

Back around 2000-2005 we had several companies (Like Stichting Internet Reclame) in the Netherlands that denied the existence of people using Linux and firefox. None of their metrics showed the existence of these visitors.
They failed to mention that the way they measured was by installing snooping software on the windows systems of the volunteers. The bogus results of Stichting Internet Reclame and other companies destroyed the self hosting of advertisement servers and software, because they showed different results. This eventually has lead in the Netherlands to the intrusive ad networks we see today. Mass spread of virusses thanks to these
As a matter of fact: I am battling one right now, as a client even, because just serving a pixel to give feedback the ad has worked, actually redirects them to parties I've never heart of.
The original was a javascript that they called pixel. It basically downloads other javascripts from unknown sites, and runs that. On a simple GDPR compliant page, the page went to 60% marketing network and gross violation of GDPR, and to have an add run on their network is very expensive.
How did I get here ranting like that?
Oh yeah: I don't trust stats like that.
I never did. But at least you can twist the stats of NetmarketShare to something that supports what I want to see:
https://tinyurl.com/tv-operating-systems
There are apparently only 2 operating systems for TV's: Gnu/Linux and Linux/Android.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By CatKiller, 3 June 2020 at 10:04 am UTC

GBeeMaybe I need more coffee, but I've no clue what "Snaps are more locked-down as they compared it to using proprietary software, it pushes Ubuntu directly and Snaps are done in the background." means?

Perhaps I should read the original for elucidation. The above explanation has severely confused me

It's Liam's summary of Mint's position, but it's hard to make it clear because Mint's position is just argle bargle.

In Ubuntu chromium is distributed (by default - you can still use a PPA) as a snap, for the reasons Liam linked to. Snaps have a central repository that Canonical pays for and maintains, for the reasons listed in the video I linked to, but other developers can put their stuff on there (other developers putting their stuff on there is kinda the point).

These things have made the Mint people Very Angry.

There are issues with snaps, but they aren't the ones that people get Very Angry about.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By TheSHEEEP, 3 June 2020 at 10:02 am UTC

kuhpunkt
TheSHEEEPI've seen that argument a few times, and frankly, it is a myth.
Ever since Valve opened the floodgates and accepted every piece of garbage game on their platform without any moderation whatsoever, the number of games coming out is so huge that a developer gains pretty much nothing from the fact that they are on Steam. This is especially true for indie developers.
Valve doesn't "present" a damn thing, users have to actively wade through the masses of unmoderated games.

Tell how awesome being on Steam alone is to all the developers who didn't do their due diligence, didn't do any marketing, and as a result barely sell anything on Steam.
And if you have to do the marketing routine anyway, what exactly is so great about being "presented" on Steam, again?

What does that have to do with anything? There is too much of everything. Moderation doesn't change that. You won't notice the trash anyway, but do you complain about spotify and bandcamp, too? Everybody can upload their stuff there. There's a billion musicians. Not all of them can break through.
What that has to do with anything is that you were trying to make the point that being on Steam alone would somehow be a good thing for a developer. It is a necessary thing, or at least it used to be, but developers don't gain anything from the mere fact.
Because of the reasons I outlined. Just like simply being on Spotify doesn't do anything for musicians.

And moderation makes a lot of difference, especially strong moderation. There used to be a time when you'd actually notice an interesting new release on Steam. Now there are so many of them that you'd basically have to go through the list every day. Who wants to do that?
On GOG and EGS, there are way fewer new releases per day (sometimes, there might not even be one in a day!), so those do get noticed simply by the fact that they got released.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By GBee, 3 June 2020 at 9:53 am UTC

Maybe I need more coffee, but I've no clue what "Snaps are more locked-down as they compared it to using proprietary software, it pushes Ubuntu directly and Snaps are done in the background." means?

Perhaps I should read the original for elucidation. The above explanation has severely confused me

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By Linas, 3 June 2020 at 9:52 am UTC Likes: 2

fagnerlnI understand the problem with Snap, but I really don't like the way that mint are working. An empty package is a silly idea, they should ask if the user cares about using snap or not and do the job.
It's an empty package in Ubuntu. Mint are opposing this.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By fagnerln, 3 June 2020 at 9:51 am UTC

I understand the problem with Snap, but I really don't like the way that mint are working. An empty package is a silly idea, they should ask if the user cares about using snap or not and do the job.

It's funny they complaining about the ubuntu's base as LMDE evolves slowly.

Manjaro looks like have a good support to Snap, letting the user choose easily

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By TheSHEEEP, 3 June 2020 at 9:51 am UTC

kuhpunkt
TheSHEEEPNot a huge profit margin, mind you, it might be only covering their expenses. And I do expect them to raise it somewhat, as I wrote above.

And covering your expenses is good enough?
Of course it is, while you are growing. Just look at Spotify, etc. I'm not even sure they make a profit at this point, but they sure as hell didn't initially.

kuhpunktbut when transfer fees can be up to 15%, it's not covering costs. Sweeney himself once said it's not sustainable in certain areas. And they lose money with their sales, too.
Which is irrelevant as Epic forwards those fees to the users, encouraging them not to use services with absurdly large transfer fees.
https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/epic-games-store-faq?lang=en-US

kuhpunkt
TheSHEEEPYou don't see anyone complain because complaining could make you enemies you don't want to have. Also, it would be entirely pointless. What are devs gonna do, not publish on PS4 because they don't like the cut?

And that makes it less hypocritical?
Makes what less hypocritical?
Saying that Steam's cut is way larger than it needs to be? Nothing hypocritical about it, that's just the truth.
Pointing at others doing the same (or worse) is whataboutism and adds no valid points to any discussion.

kuhpunktI'm not sure who started with the 30%, but once upon a time it was a dream for developers/publishers to get 70%. And what's so bad about them making profit? I don't think it's exploitative.
Nothing bad about it, I'm just saying that it is better for developers if that cut was lower and that the cut can absolutely be lowered while storefronts would still make a profit.

kuhpunktAlso you didn't address the monthly fees for XBOX Live etc. that you don't have on PC.
Because they have nothing to do with anything discussed here. It's just another way for Sony, etc. to make more money to allow them to heavily subsidize their consoles to sell them at a lower price than what would otherwise make sense.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By Linas, 3 June 2020 at 9:40 am UTC

Did Mint retire their Debian version? No forced Snaps or Flatpaks there. They are available, if you want them, but it's your choice.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By Patola, 3 June 2020 at 9:38 am UTC Likes: 3

That's wonderful. Congratulations, Mr. Lefèbvre, kudos to you for the very correct attitude against snaps, which are the most egregious attitude Canonical has taken in the last years. I am still using Ubuntu due to inertia and widespread support, but really, decisions like that with the closed Snap Server and enforcing snaps make me afraid of Canonical growing more and getting more leverage to behave like Apple does.

Linux Mint votes no on Snap packages, APT to block snapd installs
By CatKiller, 3 June 2020 at 9:29 am UTC Likes: 3

It's worth people watching this video - part of a much longer interview - so that they're informed about snaps.

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By Uncleivan, 3 June 2020 at 9:28 am UTC Likes: 1

Any dev taking the epic deal goes into my blacklist. And im not buying this game in one year on Steam; i simply dont like devs that go into epic.

Fuck epic
Fuck tim sweeney
Fuck Microsoft

Total War Saga: TROY is now a 12 month Epic Games Store exclusive
By kuhpunkt, 3 June 2020 at 8:22 am UTC

TheSHEEEPI've seen that argument a few times, and frankly, it is a myth.
Ever since Valve opened the floodgates and accepted every piece of garbage game on their platform without any moderation whatsoever, the number of games coming out is so huge that a developer gains pretty much nothing from the fact that they are on Steam. This is especially true for indie developers.
Valve doesn't "present" a damn thing, users have to actively wade through the masses of unmoderated games.

Tell how awesome being on Steam alone is to all the developers who didn't do their due diligence, didn't do any marketing, and as a result barely sell anything on Steam.
And if you have to do the marketing routine anyway, what exactly is so great about being "presented" on Steam, again?

What does that have to do with anything? There is too much of everything. Moderation doesn't change that. You won't notice the trash anyway, but do you complain about spotify and bandcamp, too? Everybody can upload their stuff there. There's a billion musicians. Not all of them can break through.

Lenovo adding Ubuntu & Red Hat on their entire ThinkStation and ThinkPad P lines
By grigi, 3 June 2020 at 7:58 am UTC

nattydreadI just got an HP spectre 360 13 2-in-1 it runs ubuntu linux flawlessly out of the box, Function keys, screen brightness, backlit key brightness, screen rotation, everything. I don't think you can say that about the Dells. It's not got ryzen though...

Odd, I have had 3 Dells in a on Linux, and the first one only had the issue of the touchpad not working right until the next kernel release. The others have been fine?
Firmware updates, every hardware feature they had, all native support from Linux.
Whereas the HP Elitebook was a trainwreck on Linux.

It probably has to do with the models. I know the Dell Vostros are not made by Dell, so they are very different.

The Linux market share still appears to be rising
By gradyvuckovic, 3 June 2020 at 7:44 am UTC

The thing which gives me hope every time I see Linux marketshare go up, is the thought that more marketshare makes further growth even easier.

It's hard to gain marketshare when your platform has no organic third party support. But if you can achieve it, and bring users to your platform, then organic third party support will always follow. Developers and manufacturers of software and hardware always follow users. So if we get more users, we get more support.

At 0.91%, we're not exactly commanding a noticeable portion of the marketshare yet. But every little bit of growth means a bit more organic third party support. Which only makes it easier for more users to make the switch to Linux, as more of the stuff they want is already here.

It's really a feedback loop in both ways. No users means no developers. No developers means no users. The chicken and egg problem that has haunted Linux for years. But it goes the other way too, more users means more developers. More developers means more users.

I really feel like Wine/Proton has short circuited the chicken and egg problem. Which is the second thing which gives me hope. Proton is really only partially complete in a sense, it's missing what I consider to be more or less 'the final piece of the puzzle', ie; anticheat support.

It feels like we're getting closer to the point where something is going to happen on that front. When it does, that's going to make even more games playable on Linux that aren't currently. Which will just bring more users to Linux, even faster.

At some threshold, between where Linux is now, and where MacOS is today, is the level of threshold which makes a company decide to support an OS. Origin has a Windows and MacOS client, but no Linux. Same with Battle.net. Same with EGS. Same with GOG.

We're not far from that threshold, if we can keep getting steady rises, plus anticheat support, we could reach that threshold for at least one of those platforms, which will see even more gamers come to Linux as a result.

We just gotta keep pushing, keep improving the experience of gaming on Linux in every way possible and keep our eyes on whatever roadblocks exist that are keeping Windows gamers from making the switch, while ensuring those who do stick around. As long as we have a better retention rate than Windows, we'll keep gaining ground.

Stadia Pro now has 17 games to redeem, with Elder Scrolls Online soon
By dubigrasu, 3 June 2020 at 7:43 am UTC

LinuxwarperRest of your points I don't care for, you lost me between the snarky remarks...
Ah, sorry to hear that. Apologies for my snarkiness.