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Valve: Hey, have some free games.
Debian Devs: No, they aren't free.

How much do you like discussing the same thing over and over? Steam is DRM in itself, it requires me to be a Steam user to buy and play the games, that's even worse than having to input keycodes or the game disk to play. DRM is about control, Steam too. I don't want to be a Steam user nor install some crappy client, I just want to buy and play games and I do in the DRM-free online stores. Why do Steam users need to claim it's DRM-free when it isn't?

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Half-Shot: As I said. Valve can offer something... DRM-free for a change ;)

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Quoting: Quote from AnonymouThough, I have concerns about Debian Devs now rather playing games in their spare time than devoting to Debian ;-).

Hehe, i wonder how much time they get for games.

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlI'd expect that Debian developers are pretty negative about DRM in general, so this move from Valve is rather weird.

Mm. Its rather odd but what can valve actually give except dosh....which is actually probably a better idea.

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I'd expect that Debian developers are pretty negative about DRM in general, so this move from Valve is rather weird.

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I'm confused how is valve doing something awesome like giving away hundreds of dollars of games to every Debian developer turn into an argument about DRM... Did I stumble onto phoronix? Q is that you? No couldn't be not promoting AMD free drivers.

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A list of steam games with DRM is being made here
http://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_3rd_Party_DRM_on_Steam

And for DRM free games on Steam here
http://pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam

It doesn't filter just for Linux, but maybe in future.

Also it's not completely accurate for Linux either, some games have DRM on windows but not on Linux.

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Not using Debian at all, but it's a nice sign of showing appreciation for all  the work Debian is doing (for Valve).
The guys have done that in the past, and will do in the future. They're doing Debian because they believe in it.

I'd consider this as a little "thank you" of Valve. And I'm sure that Valve will contribute to Debian as well in some extend, as they contribute to linux in some extend (graphics stack at the moment), which shows results already and is a great thing.

That games being given on Steam? Sure. It's Valve, and I don't consider it as a "biggie".

Though, I have concerns about Debian Devs now rather playing games in their spare time than devoting to Debian ;-).

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Steam backup ability doesn't work for installation without Steam. And I'm not sure about all games being self contained and not relying on installation scripts. But if you saw this documented somewhere, that's another matter.

About attitude - that was about not providing packages for download easily. Saying "go to the game directory, fish it out and let's hope it will work as is" is not a serious way to handle that. It's dismissive or unsupported in my book. That's the attitude I was talking about.

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Quoting: Quote from DisharmonicGetting banned is an issue but usually would require you to actually do something illegal, like fraud.

Getting banned no longer disables your existing catalog, it only prevents further purchases.

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Quoting: Quote from ShmerlDisharmonic: It might be true for some games (like with self contained directories) and might be not true for others (which have some installation scripts and etc.). Anyway, the lack of official support for such DRM free packages makes me consider Steam to be always DRMed (with ways to bypass it in cases when you can manually backup the game). It's the attitude that I consider bad the most, which is enough of a reason for me not to use Steam. In contrast, HB and GOG officially offer DRM-free packages and make an effort to support the usability of such approach.

Steam games are always contained within their folder. That is true even on windows and is part of how Steam actually handles updates afaik. I'm also not sure what attitude you mean. On the Steam platform DRM is an option, not a requirement. Of course Steam doesn't show which games use it's DRM and which not. That is something that they could and should improve upon.  

Quoting: Quote from torhamI agree with Shmeri, the ability to install in addition to play without asking permission from a 3rd party is a requirement for me.  Also, Steam DRM does hinder legitimate customers, consider what happens if your account gets banned or you just want to install on multiple devices without downloading the game again.

You can actually do the latter using Steam's backup ability. Getting banned is an issue but usually would require you to actually do something illegal, like fraud. Though i admit i had heard about some questionable bans several years back, but nothing recently.

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I found that one, of the unity editor team lead though:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Unity2D/comments/1m0koc/ama_im_a_developer_at_unity_making_the_builtin_2d/cc5eb97

and the guys of leadwerks really should have gone with Qt over GTK+ for the cross platform client. Would very likely have made their life easier to support Linux/Win/Mac without re-coding the whole UI for a specific platform.

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Quoting: Quote from liamdawe

Quoting: Quote from Chris ThornettGood news! It's a bit harsh to call Unity's popularity a monopoly though, when they chose to support Linux while game engine/dev software didn't and still don't - They should be applauded.

Maybe Monopoly isn't the best way to describe it, but it's still mostly true.

While yes it's good they support Linux, they still have no plans to port the editor, so no real applause from me yet.

Well, they may consider one day... but ...
http://feedback.unity3d.com/suggestions/platforms-unity-editor-for-linu
has quite some votes, to be true, is rated #1. And no dev yet commented. No statement. Nothing.

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Alienware has said that they will in fact have two machines with the steamOS available, one it the steam machine mentioned in the article above, the other is the X51 which previously came with ubuntu installed. http://www.dell.com/us/p/alienware-x51/pd So if you want a customizable/configurable steam machine you can buy the X51 but if you want a more console like machine you can go with their official steam machine. The X51 will have the option of windows/steamos, they appear to have dropped support for ubuntu.

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Actually, some of the percentages surprise me a bit. I'd have given a bet that the linux sales are between 1 and 2 percent, didn't think they'd grow upon 5 % for one of the devs.

I know a small indie developer studio which chose Unity3D as an engine (they have financial background) for their next title and will support linux. They said they're surprised that it's almost no work to support Linux in addition, and if it givest hem 1-2 % net sales it's a win for them.

Seems also to depend on the tools and engine you use. And I'm sure Cry and others will do just fine for that too.

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I agree with Shmeri, the ability to install in addition to play without asking permission from a 3rd party is a requirement for me.  Also, Steam DRM does hinder legitimate customers, consider what happens if your account gets banned or you just want to install on multiple devices without downloading the game again.

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fowll: And? Why would you rely on any of their promises? Promises don't substitute backups, and promises aren't part of your user agreement with Valve, so they can always say they have no obligations to keep them if they go bankrupt (they even might not have an ability to keep them at that point).

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Quoting: Quote from ShmerlAny DRM is DRM, far or not. If the service closes down, and let's say you own a few thousands worth of games there, is it far that you won't be able to install any of them because you didn't have an option to back them up when you bought them? I know quite a few people who avoid using Steam just for that reason. Any DRM is bad.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/18mzcn/i_asked_steam_support_what_happens_to_my_games_if/
http://i.imgur.com/4sa1Ln6.jpg

It is a response form valve about what will happen in the event of the discontinuation of steam. Ask them yourself if you want.

So one more problem solved.

If GOG or humble closes down, will they keep servers live to allow you to redownload the games? (not retorical, i don't know)

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Disharmonic: It might be true for some games (like with self contained directories) and might be not true for others (which have some installation scripts and etc.). Anyway, the lack of official support for such DRM free packages makes me consider Steam to be always DRMed (with ways to bypass it in cases when you can manually backup the game). It's the attitude that I consider bad the most, which is enough of a reason for me not to use Steam. In contrast, HB and GOG officially offer DRM-free packages and make an effort to support the usability of such approach.

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Quoting: Quote from ShmerlAny DRM is DRM, far or not. If the service closes down, and let's say you own a few thousands worth of games there, is it far that you won't be able to install any of them because you didn't have an option to back them up when you bought them? I know quite a few people who avoid using Steam just for that reason. Any DRM is bad.

Games on Steam without DRM are actually DRM-Free. You don't need to have the service running to play DRM-Free games and on Linux you can simply copy the game folder to create a backup of the game. You only need to run the client once, download your game and then you are done. FTL is an example of such a game. It's really not that different to using GoG or HB, the only difference is you're using a 3rd party download tool instead of your browser.

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Quoting: Quote from ShmerlAny DRM is DRM, far or not. If the service closes down, and let's say you own a few thousands worth of games there, is it far that you won't be able to install any of them because you didn't have an option to back them up when you bought them? I know quite a few people who avoid using Steam just for that reason. Any DRM is bad.

That's quite true. Indeed, I believe many people will kill themselves the day Steam shuts down! :P

In any case we'll have to live with that, at least for a while. After all, better to have games on Steam under GNU/Linux that games on Steam under Windows. It is already a large improvement that I didn't expect so soon.

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Any DRM is DRM, far or not. If the service closes down, and let's say you own a few thousands worth of games there, is it far that you won't be able to install any of them because you didn't have an option to back them up when you bought them? I know quite a few people who avoid using Steam just for that reason. Any DRM is bad.

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I know the author was surprised that Love got greenlit because it seemed to retro.  For me, that seems to be half the charm, the other is that it looks to be a really tightly controlled game and can't wait to play it!

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Quoting: Quote from ShmerlI wasn't talking about Steamworks lock-in, which developers can avoid if they wish. It's bad of course. I was talking about requiring to run the client and connecting to the service to install the game. It's step 1 DRM, and no, Steam offers no packages outside the service. Sometimes you can manually copy stuff and reuse, but that's not an official support when the service provides a package (like HB and GOG do). Therefore I consider Steam to be always DRMed.

I don't like DRM either, but seriously are we going this far?
What if i don't want to open my browser and connect to a website to download my games, what than?
That would be DRM forcing me to run a browser that have no relevance to installing or downloading my game.

DRM is only bad when its overdone and/or hinders legitimate costumers. Ofc it would also be nice if everything was open source but in some fields open source is not a very viable option.

Steam is basically a browser too you know.

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I wasn't talking about Steamworks lock-in, which developers can avoid if they wish. It's bad of course. I was talking about requiring to run the client and connecting to the service to install the game. It's step 1 DRM, and no, Steam offers no packages outside the service. Sometimes you can manually copy stuff and reuse, but that's not an official support when the service provides a package (like HB and GOG do). Therefore I consider Steam to be always DRMed.

To clarify, it's not about a burden of logging in anywhere. It's about an ability to install (from a backup for example) and run the game without the service.

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Quoting: Quote from fowll

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlSo they consider DRM to be the integral part of their service? I really don't see a good reason for that.

Quoting: Quote from fowllgood thing is that Valve already offer DRM free games. DRM is not a part of steam but a option for developers who require DRM.
try for example "sir, you are being hunted" by double clicking on the ELF file, with steam closed.
the game starts and steam stay closed.

No, they don't. I already explained in the previous threads, that DRM-free means offering standalone packages / installers first (and then of course no additional requirements to run the client for running the game and so on). Steam fails at step one already.

what more than a DRM free download do you need form steam? you want it to install the game without running steam?
once the game is installed you can unistall steam and keep the game.

This + 1, which links into my answer, steam itself is NOT DRM. It is as much a burden as logging into a website to download rather than having a dedicated link to download.

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Quoting: Quote from ShmerlSo they consider DRM to be the integral part of their service? I really don't see a good reason for that.

Quoting: Quote from fowllgood thing is that Valve already offer DRM free games. DRM is not a part of steam but a option for developers who require DRM.
try for example "sir, you are being hunted" by double clicking on the ELF file, with steam closed.
the game starts and steam stay closed.

No, they don't. I already explained in the previous threads, that DRM-free means offering standalone packages / installers first (and then of course no additional requirements to run the client for running the game and so on). Steam fails at step one already.

what more than a DRM free download do you need form steam? you want it to install the game without running steam?
once the game is installed you can unistall steam and keep the game.

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Quoting: Quote from Shmerl

Quoting: Quote from liamdaweWell no, Steam is the most integral part of their entire service, they won't give that up, ever.

So they consider DRM to be the integral part of their service? I really don't see a good reason for that. Convenience of the service in some aspects has nothing to do with restrictions it also adds. I.e. nothing stops Steam from keeping the convenience while dropping the DRM nonsense. Except their unwillingness.

They don't see it as DRM remember, and it is questionable if it really is. Their "DRM" is actually a group of services offered to games like matchmaking, achievements, cards etc. It is a developers choice to use them, not Steam's.

If you want to hammer against DRM on Steam, talk to the game developers.

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Quoting: Quote from liamdaweWell no, Steam is the most integral part of their entire service, they won't give that up, ever.

So they consider DRM to be the integral part of their service? I really don't see a good reason for that. Convenience of the service in some aspects has nothing to do with restrictions it also adds. I.e. nothing stops Steam from keeping the convenience while dropping the DRM nonsense. Except their unwillingness.

Quoting: Quote from fowllgood thing is that Valve already offer DRM free games. DRM is not a part of steam but a option for developers who require DRM.
try for example "sir, you are being hunted" by double clicking on the ELF file, with steam closed.
the game starts and steam stay closed.

No, they don't. I already explained in the previous threads, that DRM-free means offering standalone packages / installers first (and then of course no additional requirements to run the client for running the game and so on). Steam fails at step one already.

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It's just the beginning. There is source out there for their modifications used in SteamOS. Go look for the tar.gz files in the repo. For instance, the compositor source is here: http://repo.steampowered.com/steamos/pool/main/s/steamos-compositor/steamos-compositor_1.15.2.tar.gz

The fact that they've released a new ISO that has features pulled in from the unofficial Ye Olde SteamOSe project this early proves, at least to me, that they Get It(tm). It's still very early on, and SteamOS is literally Steam on top of Debian... There's not much code to share. But it's there.

Unless you mean opening up the Steam client, in which case, yeah that would be great, but unrealistic right now. Will they get there? Very possibly. Time will tell.

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good thing is that Valve already offer DRM free games. DRM is not a part of steam but a option for developers who require DRM.
try for example "sir, you are being hunted" by double clicking on the ELF file, with steam closed.
the game starts and steam stay closed.

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