Quoting: omer666I think in some situations, we can, and we must.
In many other cases, we observed overreactions, and I for once don't agree with many of them.
If you vote with your wallet and don't explain why, developers end up stating "Linux isn't worth the money" and we're in an even more sh*tty situation.

Agreed, but it must be done with tact. Perception is a political game, not an honest one unfortunately. We either have to learn, as a community, to play the game or get out. It sucks, it means we don't always say exactly what we think. Put our best foot forward, even when the devs don't - if only to improve the public perception of the Linux Gaming community... which doesn't have a good rap right now.

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Quoting: omer666

Quoting: EagleDeltaLiam, I think it is important to note that Kickstarter is NOT a store.

Also, Liam doesn't need to tell us what Kickstarter is or is not. In real life, investors turn their back on the company, they sell their stock options, and ultimately the company shuts its doors. If you want us to react this way, so be it. But I thought backing projects on Kickstarters or supporting open source systems was a bit more human than this.

True, but in if you think of it like how Wall Street works, most people putting money into stocks (investing) do NOT have any reasonable controlling stake in the company because their contribution or "Ownership" of the Company's value is so small compared to the larger investors.... same goes for Kickstarter.... we provide funds to help fund the development/production of a product, but we pay so little compared to the larger investors that we, more or less, don't "have a vote". Just like the average joe buying stocks in Google, Facebook, MacDonald's, etc has no "vote" in the direction of the company.

Business and Investing etiquette have never and probably never follow any sort of common sense. That's just the way it works. Don't give to kickstarter unless you're willing to lose that money.........

Doesn't mean we can't be angry, but how we react to this affects how other game devs may perceive linux gamers and may even affect their willingness to port to linux. Show your anger with your wallet, NOT harsh comments. Those comment make us as a whole look bad.

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Quoting: XzylSadly as a kickstarter backer this is the game that made me stop investing in other games... We need a Jim Sterling type to slam these guys into the mud for us few voiceless Linux lovers.... Linux version promised... promise broken, Linux version of new game promised... promise broken. Day 1 Linux release of updated original games, promise broken... SAVE US JIM! #fvcklarian!

Liam,

I think it is important to note that Kickstarter is NOT a store. Companies are asking for money to help build a product they can hopefully finish. More than likely they are also getting funding from other sources. When someone gives money to Kickstarter, they should be doing it for one reason only - they like the idea and want to see it succeed. Do NOT fund kickstarter based off promises, those promises mean nothing, especially if other real investors put enough money in to have a controlling or vocal say in the direction of the product.... such investors (from other sources) could eventually decide that promises made on kickstarter were bad business decisions and decide that either the company drops those promises or they lose a main source of funding.

Is this really, really annoying - yes, I'm just as pissed and annoyed as anyone else, but as someone who's had to deal with the politics in the Tech and Gaming industry at various levels, nothing is EVER as simple as it seems. We make assumptions b/c we are passionate, but many of these "I paid as a kickstarter backer" attitudes simply refuse to acknowledge that kickstarter is NOT a store - it's a funding site. ONLY give money for projects you want to freely give money and NOT out of an expectation for a Linux version.

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Ok, I'm going to be the voice that no one agrees with, but Larian is a business. No matter what they promised, no matter what we expect, their #1 goal is to make money... nothing else. So from a business perspective, it makes sense that they would focus on the largest markets first for the Enhanced Edition.

Is it kind of shitty? Yes.
Is it the reality of the world we live in? Yes.

Until Mac and Linux rise above a combined ~5 million users on Steam, we will be the last considered for most games, if considered at all. The attitudes that I've seen here, while justified, do nothing but make devs NOT want to develop for Linux. We make ourselves look like just as big of jerks as the developers appear to be many times. We ARE the minority and we HAVE to stop acting like we are entitled to anything. Unless you gave to kickstarter, but even then there are disclaimers specifically stating you are putting forth money at your own risk.... nothing was ever guaranteed.

What we should be doing instead is:

1. Be thankful that, after all the verbal abuse we put Larian through, they are still doing a Linux port.
2. Be thankful they are taking time to make sure it is a good port.
3. Offer to help beta test if they want it... they may not reply, but putting on a good face is important
4. In the Business world perception matters most. No one will take a person or group of people seriously if the perception of said group is bad. It's on US to fix the perception of Linux and Linux users and the comments on Reddit and here actually do nothing but make that perception worse.

People have every right to be upset and disappointed, but while any one of us may think the perceptions, political correctness, PR, etc are all a bunch of BS - it's what a majority of the world runs on, especially in the Business world. No one CARES what any of us think, especially if we are being total asses about it (and it doesn't matter how much in the "right" we are either).

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Quoting: STiATIs it somewhat comparable to DA: Origins combat and story whise?

Not so much Story Wise, but gameplay wise - yes. This is based mostly off the 5th Edition PnP RPG Rules. The game only has a half of the classes and and handful of races (playable that is) from 5th right now, but the first DLC (which if free/not free - not clear on that one) will add an additional class and race.

The Story is definitely a good story, but it also serves as an intro to the game. It's designed to bring a near complete D&D experience to video games.... DM Mode allows for player to create entire modules/stories set in other parts of the Forgotten Realms. In one case, the World Map even showed the new locations for that module.

Finally, Dungeon Crawl is fun too. Just set some presets for a dungeon tile set, quest settings, floors, size, difficulty, and monster groups and enter - randomly generates a dungeon to you specifications (or the DM's if one is playing)

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As much as this will be easier for some users, it removes the ability to have the package manager control the updates.

I personally would prefer Galaxy, Deb or a PPA. While GOG can do whatever they want as a vendor, going outside of package managers is generally seen as bad practice on both the Desktop AND Server side.

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Quoting: salamanderrakeI think that Linux users should never back anything on kickstarter or any site like that ever again, and I don't think we should ever buy anything from Larian studios even if it is a day one Linux release, we don't need devs like that on Linux anyways, they just make the Linux gaming experience bad for everyone. If they can port to mac but not linux then they are worthless anyways. Don't buy Larian games anymore and don't support them either, that includes telling others to buy their games. We need to start sending devs like them messages that we are not going to take their crap anymore.

That is a horrible attitude to have. Don't stop funding things on kickstarter due to a handful of really late or cancelled linux ports, that type of attitude hurts the image of Linux users as a whole. Keep in mind that the Developers may be really annoyed that they were just punted the promise of a Mac and Linux version they never planned to support. From the reply I saw, it seems that:

1. They started Development well before the Kickstarter and didn't expect to be making anything other than a Windows game.

2. Someone in Management promised backers a Mac and Linux version without talking to the Developers to see if it was possible/feasible - this is some I know all too well. We've had failed launches due to promises mgmt made without talking to the technical side first.

Point is, lets try to rise above the failed/delayed promises rather than throw hissy fits about VIDEO GAMES which in the grand scheme of life really don't matter that much.

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Quoting: PicoboomI'm worn out "being fair" for negligent developers that renege on their promises of Linux ports. Indeed, I've developed an attitude of bitter suspicion about any promised Linux port. I've had to develop a mindset that NO game is ever COMING to Linux. It is either available on Linux, or it is not. It is simply infuriating and belittling the glibness with which developers promise ports and then walk away from their promises. It is simply wrong.

I fully understand that "things happen" in a project, but common decency, basic human interaction dictates that if you make a promise, you better explain yourself when you fail to deliver on that promise. By making excuses on behalf of silent developers that fail to deliver on their projects, the Linux community condones and validates the abuse it receives. I don't see how the Linux gaming community benefits at all by enabling the shoddy business practices of what amounts to, at best, negligence and the silent treatment, and at worst mismanagement and poor planning or an utter lack of play-testing or quality control.

So yes, I fully support a "wall of shame," not for games, but for their would-be Linux developers. If they fail to release on time and also fail to explain why and offer a new expected time, then up on the wall. If they push out some stillborn, broken port, then up on the wall. No one is going to hold these snake-oil salesmen accountable for their lies and shoddy products, not Steam, not the Windows community, nobody but us. If we learned nothing from the recent Steam reversal regarding selling mods, we learned that businesses respond to the slings and arrows of an outraged community.

I'm done begging. I'm done going with hat in hand to these developers and thanking them for even deigning to bless us poor Linux users with the even the possibility of a port. If a person is only as good as their word, then many developers are simply bad, bad people.

I still think this is a overreaction just b/c they are working on a new game before D:OS is on Linux. As I said earlier, chances are that they have a very small team of Linux specific Developers/Engineers working on the Linux version, they are not going to continue paying the entire company to do nothing while the Linux team completes their work. They are working on several Mac and Windows fixes and enhancements as well that I highly doubt are going to be thrown out either.

As for the length of time, unless you are working at Larian (or any company), do NOT blame the Developers/Engineers. It is never that simple. I'm speaking from experience here as a Linux Systems/DevOps Engineer. There are times when we have to do things we know are not the best option because mgmt requested it done a certain way, or times when we had to push back releases of major projects/features due to simple realizing the project as bigger more complicated that originally thought, and even times when we simply did NOT have the resources (either time or money) to focus on more than 2-3 major issues and other projects got put on hold.

All of the above is normal in business. If Larian has any sort of Board or Investors (outside of the crowdfunding), they may even be facing pressure from them to focus on the issues/tasks where they could lose the most money. I don't like how long it is taking either, but I've been in the tech industry long enough to know that it's never as simple as it seems. And they are still a business first and foremost. Linux Developers/Engineers are expensive, far more expensive than Windows devs are due to their relative scarcity and high need these days in the Corporate world. Face it, if Larian doesn't make money, we don't see a port anyway.

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While I won't defend how long it is taking, keep in mind that many of these smaller studios only have 1-2 developers who know enough about Linux to work on the Port. They may be moving their non-Linux devs on to something else while the Linux porters continue to work on the Port.

As a DevOps Engineer myself, just because I'm working on a Puppet Module to manage the recently released App doesn't mean they wait for me to complete and push before moving on to their next project. Nothing would ever get done that way. Developers and Engineers in the Gaming and Tech field are expensive, no company is going to leave some sitting around while others are trying to finish an old project.

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We'll see what happens, shortly after those path definitions were created, actual data was added to the Mac Depot..... The Linux Depot is still at "no size".

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