Quoting: pleasereadthemanualI do think you're right that it's an awful time to be a newcomer, because you're stuck with two not-very-great options right now. There's cool and fundamental stuff on Wayland you won't see on Xorg, but there are definite issues with Wayland too. I hope that the pain now will result in a great experience in 2025, which is just around the time some people might be considering their options.

And out of genuine curiosity, what is missing on Wayland? I wanted to compile a list so I can keep tabs on the issues, but so far I've got:

* Explicit Sync to fix flickering (recently got 3 ACKs and is nearly ready to merge, awaiting implementations in compositors + drivers)
* Color Management Protocol (seems like some early implementations have recently been done and Plasma 6 has limited HDR support)
* Better IME protocol, maybe? It works for me on GNOME and KDE, but the implementation was a little broken on wlroots

Yeah, fully agree that at least for nvidia users this year will be tough when being on Fedora or Arch until all the explicit sync stuff lands. X in Gnome (I don’t know about KDE) is decaying really fast now. Considering developer resources are limited, I still prefer to take the pain now and hope that the Wayland ecosystem (and governance) will shine soon when no longer hands are tied to support X.

What I’m also missing in Gnome land is first class Wacom support and the protocol implementation for drm-lease (VR). That said, I’m happy with Labwc where those things do work.

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Quoting: sudoerSo basically games that are using Proton/WINE won't work at all with Fedora 41?

No. Proton/Wine works just fine, also currently, using XWayland on a Wayland desktop session.

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Quoting: pleasereadthemanualMy experience is that Krita is terrible on GNOME, Wayland or X11, with a NVIDIA GPU. My Wacom tablet works properly on KDE Wayland and only KDE Wayland.

Of course, Krita's toolbar flickers black every 5 seconds so it's a little distracting.

Have I mentioned how tired I am of NVIDIA's proprietary drivers before?

Cool to hear that the KDE folks got their tablet support right. I'm using my Wacom tablet solemnly as a mouse replacement, not for actual drawing. So slightly different use case I guess. Lots of Wacom related PR's got merged for the upcoming Gnome version, so I have hopes that the normal interaction works better, but things like https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/2983 are still open and probably no that easy to address :(

Yeah, the flickering might be related to the implicit/explicit sync issues. I sincerely hope that https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/90 gets merged soon and all related PR's land in compositors, xwayland etc. From my understanding, that should solve all flickering (asuming what you are seeing is related to that). Side note, reading through the discussion of that PR, NVIDIA engineers are pushing for this and contributed heavily, so it is not NVIDIA that is holding back.

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Thanks for the link, interesting use case and underlines how difficult the transition to Wayland is when looking into the details. Reading that discussion, I understand both arguments.

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I'm using an NVIDIA GPU and a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse. Both are currently not really usable on Gnome Wayland. That said, I still very welcome this switch to reduce landscape and have manpower available for getting Wayland into shape.

I'm not worried of NVIDIA, the explicit sync stuff is shaping up nicely and I guess by the end of year we have a perfect Wayland experience on NVIDIA. There is also NVK coming with an astonishing speed. The Wacom support on Gnome Wayland is getting better too, but there are still some hurdles. Fortunately there is also `labwc` which works perfectly with regard to tablet support.

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Quoting: nwildnerIf it reduces maintenance in OpenGL implementations and ends up adding performance, it's a win-win situation :)

Yes, and even if there is a slight decrease in OpenGL performance, reducing the landscape and having more manpower available for the critical parts is a (very) big win in itself imho.

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I also wish everyone a nice and playful end-of-the-year time!
While I’m not that active, I still very much enjoy the content and the community on GoL. Thanks a lot for all the hard work and for all contributions!

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Quoting: M@GOid

Quoting: jensActually I'm afraid to update. Wacom tablet support on Gnome Wayland is not yet there due to smaller issues like cursor doesn't become visible or clicks not being registered. On the other hand Wacom on X11 stills works nicely but broke horribly with the last two major Gnome releases and several minor releases were needed to get those regression fixed

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/3120 for example worries me.

And that kind of stuff is why people like me prefer LTS distros. I can understand some have a real need to be on the bleeding edge, but others need stability to get work done.

Yes, my work machine runs Ubuntu LTS, exactly to always be able to get work done ;)

To be fair, it wasn’t always like this. Usually Fedora updates were quite smooth for me with just the occasional hiccup (e.g. nvidia fbcon vs simpledrm). Only lately X11 really starts to decay. One the plus side that hopefully really brings the last Wayland glitches for non standard setups in the spotlight.

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Actually I'm afraid to update. Wacom tablet support on Gnome Wayland is not yet there due to smaller issues like cursor doesn't become visible or clicks not being registered. On the other hand Wacom on X11 stills works nicely but broke horribly with the last two major Gnome releases and several minor releases were needed to get those regression fixed

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/3120 for example worries me.

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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: StalePopcornGood news for HDR support, very confusing, given the 'NVAPI' naming yet requiring an AMD GPU I'm hoping that HDR is widespread on Linux by this time next year.

Just to be clear, this project is Nvidia only. But you're right that its release notes point out that HDR is currently AMD only. Welcome to the clear-as-mud world of Linux graphics stacks!

Well, yeah, things are indeed a bit muddier if you drill down.

On Windows NVAPI is obviously NVIDIA only and initialization will always fail with a non-NVIDIA GPU. DXVK-NVAPI on the other hand has no hard dependency on the NVIDIA driver, but just runs on top of DXVK. If you run an AMD GPU and configure DXVK to spoof an NVIDIA GPU and also configure DXVK-NVAPI to initialize with other driver (than the NVIDIA proprietary one), DXVK-NVAPI will happily initialize.

The benefits though are actually minor since the main feature, DLSS, will still not work. Game (DLSS SDK) pre-checks for GPU architecture (Turing, Ampere etc) will fail with an AMD GPU, and even if you would overcome those pre-checks by modifying the source code, things will still fail later in DXVK or VKD3D-Proton since a certain NVIDIA only Vulkan extension is not available in the AMD Vulkan driver.

Some smaller features however do work, like Latency Flex (not so easy to set up) or now HDR for those games that choose the legacy NVAPI/AGS route (even more difficult to set up).

Ironically HDR is indeed currently not possible when running an NVIDIA GPU, but when that hopefully works at some point in the future, the DXVK/DXVK-NVAPI side is ready.

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