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Well the latest Steam hardware survey is out for April and it isn't looking good again for Linux.
Here are the statistics just for Linux
Ubuntu 12.10 64 bit 0.35% -0.12%
Ubuntu 12.04.2 LTS 64 bit 0.23% -0.05%
Ubuntu 12.10 0.14% -0.05%
Ubuntu 12.04.2 LTS 0.14% -0.02%
Ubuntu 13.04 64 bit 0.11% +0.11%
Linux Mint 14 Nadia 64 bit 0.11% -0.02%
Linux 64 bit 0.10% -0.01%
Ubuntu Raring Ringtail (development branch) 64 bit 0.06% +0.02%
"Arch Linux" 64 bit 0.04% 0.00%
Ubuntu 13.04 0.04% +0.04%
Linux Mint 14 Nadia 0.03% -0.01%
"Fedora release 18 (Spherical Cow)" 64 bit 0.03% 0.00%
"openSUSE 12.3 (x86_64)" 64 bit 0.02% 0.00%
Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 (wheezy) 64 bit 0.02% -0.01%
Linux Mint 13 Maya 64 bit 0.02% -0.01%
Ubuntu Raring Ringtail (development branch) 0.02% +0.01%
Linux 0.01% 0.00%
Linux Mint 13 Maya 0.01% 0.00%
"Manjaro Linux" 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
"NAME=Gentoo" 64 bit 0.01% +0.01%
"Fedora release 17 (Beefy Miracle)" 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS 0.01% 0.00%
elementary OS Luna 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
"Gentoo Base System release 2.1" 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
"openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64)" 64 bit 0.01% -0.01%
Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 (wheezy) 0.00% -0.01%
"Gentoo Base System release 2.2" 64 bit 0.00% -0.01%
This Month: 1.56%
Last Month: 1.69%
So we lose another 0.13%, this is after a loss the previous month as well (see our post on last month here).
Well I was hoping we would see a rise this month but nope, another fall.
Could this be the sign of a continued trend across this year or will some high profile Valve launches like Left 4 Dead 2, DOTA2, Counter Strike:GO lift up our share? I seriously hope this doesn't continue as it won't paint a pretty picture for developers looking to Steam for Linux viability for ports.
What I really hope though is that people aren't looking too much into the survey, especially developers, the results are from a random set of users and as with all surveys it will only be a small % of users that will be asked so it could actually be missing out a vast amount of Linux users.
Update: As pointed out, you should allow for a margin of error on the Steam stats since they could be rounding up, rounding down or truncating the total stats to make it smaller.
Lastly Linux users typically shy away from any form of DRM, so you can bet there is a large bunch of Linux users who just simply refuse to use Steam. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Here are the statistics just for Linux
Ubuntu 12.10 64 bit 0.35% -0.12%
Ubuntu 12.04.2 LTS 64 bit 0.23% -0.05%
Ubuntu 12.10 0.14% -0.05%
Ubuntu 12.04.2 LTS 0.14% -0.02%
Ubuntu 13.04 64 bit 0.11% +0.11%
Linux Mint 14 Nadia 64 bit 0.11% -0.02%
Linux 64 bit 0.10% -0.01%
Ubuntu Raring Ringtail (development branch) 64 bit 0.06% +0.02%
"Arch Linux" 64 bit 0.04% 0.00%
Ubuntu 13.04 0.04% +0.04%
Linux Mint 14 Nadia 0.03% -0.01%
"Fedora release 18 (Spherical Cow)" 64 bit 0.03% 0.00%
"openSUSE 12.3 (x86_64)" 64 bit 0.02% 0.00%
Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 (wheezy) 64 bit 0.02% -0.01%
Linux Mint 13 Maya 64 bit 0.02% -0.01%
Ubuntu Raring Ringtail (development branch) 0.02% +0.01%
Linux 0.01% 0.00%
Linux Mint 13 Maya 0.01% 0.00%
"Manjaro Linux" 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
"NAME=Gentoo" 64 bit 0.01% +0.01%
"Fedora release 17 (Beefy Miracle)" 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
Ubuntu 12.04.1 LTS 0.01% 0.00%
elementary OS Luna 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
"Gentoo Base System release 2.1" 64 bit 0.01% 0.00%
"openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64)" 64 bit 0.01% -0.01%
Debian GNU/Linux 7.0 (wheezy) 0.00% -0.01%
"Gentoo Base System release 2.2" 64 bit 0.00% -0.01%
This Month: 1.56%
Last Month: 1.69%
So we lose another 0.13%, this is after a loss the previous month as well (see our post on last month here).
Well I was hoping we would see a rise this month but nope, another fall.
Could this be the sign of a continued trend across this year or will some high profile Valve launches like Left 4 Dead 2, DOTA2, Counter Strike:GO lift up our share? I seriously hope this doesn't continue as it won't paint a pretty picture for developers looking to Steam for Linux viability for ports.
What I really hope though is that people aren't looking too much into the survey, especially developers, the results are from a random set of users and as with all surveys it will only be a small % of users that will be asked so it could actually be missing out a vast amount of Linux users.
Update: As pointed out, you should allow for a margin of error on the Steam stats since they could be rounding up, rounding down or truncating the total stats to make it smaller.
Lastly Linux users typically shy away from any form of DRM, so you can bet there is a large bunch of Linux users who just simply refuse to use Steam. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Quoting: CheesenessI can't really speak for Hamish, but he certainly didn't come across as confrontational or lacking insight to me.
Thank you. ^_^
And you also helped by making my point for me - I really do not see why a game company would take that much interest in Wine stats as that means people are buying and purchasing their games already. We need to show that there is a native market on Linux if they are going to be convinced to make a change.
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Quoting: HamishWe need to show that there is a native market on Linux if they are going to be convinced to make a change.
THAT
IS
MY
POINT
Why do you keep twisting it and telling me I've got everything ass backwards, then espouse the exact same thing I just said? What is wrong with both of you?
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Cheeseness May 7, 2013
Quoting: AnonymousAh, no. You misunderstand. I think it would undermine the efforts and recognition of people actually running native software if the numbers of people running native software were mixed with people running software that pretended to be Windows.Quoting: CheesenessWhilst stats of Wine users as a separate metric may be of value in some respects, I think it would undermine the efforts and recognition of people actually running native software if the numbers were to be mixed with people running software that pretended to be WindowsYes, that is my point. Thanks. Oh wait...
Quoting: AnonymousNo, I'm saying that Wine user stats should not be mixed with Linux user stats, that they should be included in Windows stats, and that there would be value in having an entirely separate measurement of Wine vs native Windows users.Quoting: Cheesenessand in the end make for less accurate data rather than more accurate as you claim.So I say if I'm using wine, that I should count as linux. You say that wine stats should not be mixed with windows stats, which seems to be in agreement with me. Then you say I'm wrong? How does that work?
Quoting: AnonymousQuoting: CheesenessIMO, championing Wine usage stats is a trap.Which is why there shouldn't be any. It should count as linux, because that's the OS you're running. Who, besides you, ever mentioned such a thing as stats for wine?
You (or another Anonymous user) did:
Quoting: AnonymousTo save time, let me just tell you that a company questioning whether or not to port a game to linux would want to know how many potential new customers they could get for their efforts. In that respect, someone running a linux OS is what matters. The fact that a gamer is using a workaround to play something is irrelevant in the course of having accurate data to base that decision on.Please refer to my previous post for reasons why this reasoning may be flawed (namely, that from a business perspective, if a Linux user has already bought a game, they don't represent a new market that a native version would gain sales from).
Quoting: AnonymousQuoting: HamishWe need to show that there is a native market on Linux if they are going to be convinced to make a change.
THAT
IS
MY
POINT
Are you certain that that is your point? Hamish is saying that we need to show that there is a market of people who don't use Wine, something that would be misrepresented by the presence of Wine users in the Linux Steam stats.
Quoting: AnonymousWhy do you keep twisting it and telling me I've got everything ass backwards, then espouse the exact same thing I just said? What is wrong with both of you?
Nothing is wrong with either of us - in fact, we're being awfully patient with what is coming across as a very abrasive attitude :)
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Ah, well that sums it up. You miss the point entirely, and can't even see how you've missed it when notified, because you're thinking on a different scale.
You want everything to have its nice little box to be put into. You think I'm saying that, for instance, playing Fallout:New Vegas with wine and being counted as using linux will somehow make a new vegas port appear out of thin air.
So, for the final time, I'm going to explain this. Let's try a story since outright discussion seems impossible:
Game company X is making a new game. They want to distribute on Steam as it is a very popular service. They look at the hardware survey to decide what platforms to support before beginning their project and see that no one apparently uses linux, so they won't bother supporting the platform. In reality, a large chunk of the supposed windows users are in fact using linux, and would love company X's new game to be released natively... but alas, the metrics lied to them. Thus company X does not make linux games. Company Y, wanting to model themselves on X's success, notices they don't waste time with linux, so neither will they. etc. etc.
You're stuck on the fact that a previously released game is being run with emulation, while I'm discussing how not identifying that properly will effectively camouflage the linux market until companies no longer believe it exists. That results in less native games, more emulation, and it just snowballs from there.
This is a very simple point. I'm utterly astounded that you keep trying to twist it into something else and then complain about your version. That's called a "straw man argument" btw.
You want everything to have its nice little box to be put into. You think I'm saying that, for instance, playing Fallout:New Vegas with wine and being counted as using linux will somehow make a new vegas port appear out of thin air.
So, for the final time, I'm going to explain this. Let's try a story since outright discussion seems impossible:
Game company X is making a new game. They want to distribute on Steam as it is a very popular service. They look at the hardware survey to decide what platforms to support before beginning their project and see that no one apparently uses linux, so they won't bother supporting the platform. In reality, a large chunk of the supposed windows users are in fact using linux, and would love company X's new game to be released natively... but alas, the metrics lied to them. Thus company X does not make linux games. Company Y, wanting to model themselves on X's success, notices they don't waste time with linux, so neither will they. etc. etc.
You're stuck on the fact that a previously released game is being run with emulation, while I'm discussing how not identifying that properly will effectively camouflage the linux market until companies no longer believe it exists. That results in less native games, more emulation, and it just snowballs from there.
This is a very simple point. I'm utterly astounded that you keep trying to twist it into something else and then complain about your version. That's called a "straw man argument" btw.
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Quoting: AnonymousYou're stuck on the fact that a previously released game is being run with emulation, while I'm discussing how not identifying that properly will effectively camouflage the linux market until companies no longer believe it exists. That results in less native games, more emulation, and it just snowballs from there.
This is a very simple point. I'm utterly astounded that you keep trying to twist it into something else and then complain about your version. That's called a "straw man argument" btw.
I don't know how Valve attribute Wine usage into their stats, but you have to acknowledge you want to participate in the survey -- so you would only add to the stats if you said you are okay with it.
If they attribute the Wine usage as actual Windows usage, then they should probably do something about that, however Steam itself (again, how that gets transferred I have no idea) is aware it's being run in Wine; when you get the system information through Steam it tells you the Wine version as well.
However, many companies see Wine as a viable "Linux port" -- if they see that a lot of Linux gamers are running games via Wine just fine, then this could have a negative impact on said companies opinion of making an actual native port just as much as hiding the fact that lots of Linux gamers use Wine.
I can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I think most people would argue that a native port is better than a Wine wrapper.
I don't see either Hamish's or Cheese's arguments as straw men, I see your point as being unclear.
Quoting: AnonymousGame company X is making a new game. They want to distribute on Steam as it is a very popular service. They look at the hardware survey to decide what platforms to support before beginning their project and see that no one apparently uses linux, so they won't bother supporting the platform. In reality, a large chunk of the supposed windows users are in fact using linux, and would love company X's new game to be released natively... but alas, the metrics lied to them. Thus company X does not make linux games. Company Y, wanting to model themselves on X's success, notices they don't waste time with linux, so neither will they. etc. etc.
Just to add, your example here is -- in my opinion -- stripped right down to the basics, which I don't think is close to accurate.
I would really hope that a company does not base their entire operation around Steam and Steam's (known) less than perfect survey. Moreover, I wouldn't say a "large chunk" of the Windows user base was in fact running Wine.
At best, I would estimate 1% of the entire Windows group were running Wine.
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Quoting: edgleyIf they attribute the Wine usage as actual Windows usage, then they should probably do something about thatYes. I've been saying that. Repeatedly.
Quoting: edgleyHowever, many companies see Wine as a viable "Linux port"
Yes. Which is why it needs to report as linux rather than anything else. I've been saying that. Repeatedly.
Quoting: edgleyI can't speak for anyone else, of course, but I think most people would argue that a native port is better than a Wine wrapper.Yes. That would be the entire point of why I've been saying it should report as linux.
Quoting: edgleyI don't see either Hamish's or Cheese's arguments as straw men, I see your point as being unclear.Well, that's not surprising. Even you're doing a similar song and dance. The word "wine" comes out, and it doesn't matter what I say, everyone kneejerks and assumes I'm saying something else, then turns around and basically says what I've said as if it should set me straight. If it's unclear, why do you all keep restating my points? You seem to have understood them well enough to rephrase them and retain the meaning.
Quoting: edgleyJust to add, your example here is -- in my opinion -- stripped right down to the basics, which I don't think is close to accurate.Well, I point out the basic flaw of the hardware survey in this instance and assumed everyone else was smart enough to connect the dots. I get people who don't "buy it" as if I'm a charleton selling snakeoil, then turn right around and say they don't think wine should count as windows either. I've done this till I literally can't comprehend how people are missing this, so I tried to drop it down another notch to make it harder to twist around. So yes, I've stripped everything out, because anything else just seems to fly above heads.
I'm still at a loss how such a simple concept, that people running linux as their OS should be counted as running linux as their OS, would get such a reaction. Especially from 2 editors no less. Honestly, if RPS hadn't mentioned this place, I'd have never heard of it. Think there might be a reason I hadn't heard of it...
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Quoting: AnonymousYes. I've been saying that. Repeatedly.
I think this point has been overlooked by the bigger picture, but I do agree with you here.
Quoting: AnonymousYes. Which is why it needs to report as linux rather than anything else. I've been saying that. Repeatedly.
Quoting: AnonymousYes. That would be the entire point of why I've been saying it should report as linux.
You keep saying everyone is missing your point, yet you are missing everyone else's. Wine usage should *not* count as a *native* Linux client. Plain and simple. However, it *should* count as a Windows client in an *emulated* environment.
I think the main problem is that the title of the "OS" portion of the survey is misleading, in that it would suggest what base operating system you are running, but we are all too aware that this is not always the case.
Quoting: AnonymousWell, that's not surprising. Even you're doing a similar song and dance. The word "wine" comes out, and it doesn't matter what I say, everyone kneejerks and assumes I'm saying something else, then turns around and basically says what I've said as if it should set me straight. If it's unclear, why do you all keep restating my points?
I haven't "knee jerked" at all -- my previous point about "OS" being misleading hopefully clarifies my stance a bit better. Considering you think we are all putting words in your mouth, you sure are doing a lot of the same. If there is some kind of communication issue between your posts and mine, then I can only apologise -- as I said, to me, your stance is unclear.
Quoting: AnonymousYou seem to have understood them well enough to rephrase them and retain the meaning.
I don't know how best to respond to that -- you obviously have a good idea of where you stand on the matter, however that stance is not coming across (to me) in your posts. If my opinion on it matches yours, but the wording is different, then perhaps it's because the way your phrase it does not make it obvious. I'm not trying to argue what your opinion should be, I'm trying to get across my opinion and clarify how I interpreted other peoples opinion to maybe help you understand them better.
Quoting: AnonymousWell, I point out the basic flaw of the hardware survey in this instance and assumed everyone else was smart enough to connect the dots. I get people who don't "buy it" as if I'm a charleton selling snakeoil, then turn right around and say they don't think wine should count as windows either. I've done this till I literally can't comprehend how people are missing this, so I tried to drop it down another notch to make it harder to twist around. So yes, I've stripped everything out, because anything else just seems to fly above heads.
Being obnoxious does not prove a point.The main argument (as far as I can tell) rebutted against you was that -- because your original post did not go in to nearly as much detail as your subsequent replies -- Wine should not be counted as native.
There are clearly some crossed wires here because Wine usage still means they are running Linux, however - on the face of things - it does not accurately suggest Linux users want Linux ports. It suggests Linux users are happy to settle on Wine compatible way before an actual port (which wouldn't be so bad if the developers helped improve Wine).
Quoting: AnonymousI'm still at a loss how such a simple concept, that people running linux as their OS should be counted as running linux as their OS, would get such a reaction. Especially from 2 editors no less. Honestly, if RPS hadn't mentioned this place, I'd have never heard of it. Think there might be a reason I hadn't heard of it...
I'm not sure if you want a response from me on this or not.
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Personally I think Wine is fantastic and is part of the reason Linux has been as popular as it has been.
I am unsure where I stand on it, I think my personal view is that I would like for Wine installs to be counted as exactly what it is - Wine.
Since Wine can be run on Mac as well it would be interesting to get the numbers on it.
Mr/Miss? Anonymous I've read all of this and I see nothing wrong with what my editors have said, everyone has their own point of view that is the point of commenting if they don't agree with you it's not them being confrontational it's them trying to give their point of view as well.
Honestly to me it just sounds like everyone is having a good old chat, just remember to keep it cool guys.
I am unsure where I stand on it, I think my personal view is that I would like for Wine installs to be counted as exactly what it is - Wine.
Since Wine can be run on Mac as well it would be interesting to get the numbers on it.
QuoteHonestly, if RPS hadn't mentioned this place, I'd have never heard of it. Think there might be a reason I hadn't heard of it...The main reason would be that we are still a small website nothing to do with our commenters as you imply - you are the only one who seems to be having a big problem with all of this.
Mr/Miss? Anonymous I've read all of this and I see nothing wrong with what my editors have said, everyone has their own point of view that is the point of commenting if they don't agree with you it's not them being confrontational it's them trying to give their point of view as well.
Honestly to me it just sounds like everyone is having a good old chat, just remember to keep it cool guys.
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Quoting: AnonymousI'm still at a loss how such a simple concept, that people running linux as their OS should be counted as running linux as their OS, would get such a reaction. Especially from 2 editors no less. Honestly, if RPS hadn't mentioned this place, I'd have never heard of it. Think there might be a reason I hadn't heard of it...
Okay, up until this point I have been reading your posts with a certain amount of good humour, but when you start insulting the website I have to draw a little line in the sand here. First, as Liam has explained, Cheese and my opinions are our own respectively, and do not necessarily reflect Liam (the owner) or anyone else on this website. Second, we have not been being abusive, we have not been attacking you, and we have not abused our powers against you. You have no reason to complain that a couple of Editors have disagreed with you.
And your RPS comment is interesting since they are also quite well known for never being of one mind on anything and allowing a great deal of editorial freedom.
Quoting: AnonymousThe word "wine" comes out, and it doesn't matter what I say, everyone kneejerks and assumes I'm saying something else, then turns around and basically says what I've said as if it should set me straight.
I hardly think I am being kneejerk against Wine here. In fact, I use Wine often, and do not actually use Steam in any incarnation (so my interest in this discussion is purely academic). It is true that I do not believe it is a proper substitute for native Linux gaming, but this is not about penalizing people for using Wine.
This is about the fact that playing a Windows executable is not the same as running a Linux executable. If you believe that Wine numbers are really inflating the Windows stats (something which I do find dubious as I doubt it is all that large a piece of them) to such a degree, why are you opposed to the suggestion of a separate entry for Wine usage?
Not that all this really matters, as we are not Valve.
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Cheeseness May 8, 2013
Quoting: AnonymousAh, well that sums it up. You miss the point entirely, and can't even see how you've missed it when notified, because you're thinking on a different scale.That doesn't mean that anybody who says something else is missing the point you're making, just that they consider the different scale to be more important or relevant.
I can see what it is you're saying, but your arguments don't seem to recognise the broader implications that combining Wine usage figures with native Linux usage figures would have for the industry's perception of Linux as a viable gaming platform.
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