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Debian 11 "bullseye" is officially out now

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Seeing more than two years in development, the Debian team has announced the release of Debian 11 "bullseye" as their latest major stable upgrade. One of the most important Linux distributions around, which multiple others are based upon like Ubuntu. With it being a stable release it's going to be supported for at least 5 years.

Featuring major upgrades to various desktop environments here's what you can expect from it:

  • Gnome 3.38,
  • KDE Plasma 5.20,
  • LXDE 11,
  • LXQt 0.16,
  • MATE 1.24,
  • Xfce 4.16.

This is the first major Debian release to bring support for the exFAT filesystem through a newer Linux Kernel, there's a new "ipp-usb" package to support many more modern printers with driverless printing and scanning supported, systemd has its persistent journal feature activated by default, new packaging for software related to help fight COVID-19, better Wayland support for various Asian languages with a new Fcitx 5 input method and masses more. The Debian team noted there's around 11,294 new packages included with this release.

Full release notes available on the Debian website.

Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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Eike 24 Aug, 2021
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Quoting: NanobangYour sarcasm has been noted. :P

;)

I didn't update the page lately, but it shouldn't be harder than this:
https://ein-eike.de/2016/08/28/how-to-install-steam-and-nvidia-drivers-on-debian-jessie/
slaapliedje 24 Aug, 2021
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Quoting: NanobangWhen I re-install Debian on my test lappy I'll be sure to start a thread in the GoL forums if I run into any further problems understanding this. As I write this I can't quite remember what my specific problem was, but I do remember being bouncing between a lot of web pages. Ya'll's help here has been great, thanks.

Quoting: dpanterAvoid PPA bullcrap and the Nvidia website driver. These can and likely will break your system.

Thanks for the heads up on this!

Quoting: slaapliedjesu -
sed -i s/main/main\ contrib\ non\-free\/g /etc/apt/sources.list
apt update
apt install nvidia-driver
reboot

Thank you. :)
No problem, more converts to Debian the better! I occasionally distro hop to see how 'the other side' does things... might stay there a month, but generally head back to the warm embrace of Debian. Much easier now that I triple boot...

Just of note, once Bullseye starts to age a bit, you'll just need to enable the debian-backports (just copy the line in /etc/apt/sources.list and added '-backports' to the 'bullseye' line.

 
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian bullseye-backports main contrib non-free

Then when you want to, for example, update your nvidia driver, you do.
 
apt install -t bullseye-backports nvidia-driver


Quoting: Eike
Quoting: NanobangYour sarcasm has been noted. :P

;)

I didn't update the page lately, but it shouldn't be harder than this:
https://ein-eike.de/2016/08/28/how-to-install-steam-and-nvidia-drivers-on-debian-jessie/
Looks still accurate. I still tend to use 'apt' vs 'apt-get' these days, but otherwise still the same :)

Now if only I could figure out how to do a pull request on the steam-devices github, as I tried to add my eSwap Pro to the udev rules...
Redface 24 Aug, 2021
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: Redface
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: Redface
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: t3gIf you are a gamer, it is still better to stick with with Ubuntu/Pop_OS or Manjaro due to the udpated kernels and work into MESA that you will miss from Debian being locked down for 2 more years. You can always go with the Testing or SID branch though. If you want that bleeding edge, may as well just do Manjaro.
When Ubuntu is based on the Debian Sid branch.. :)
People often post one distribution is based on another without more context, like

Ubuntu is based on Debian (Ubuntu shares upstream deb source packages with Debian and synchronize many but not all source packages from sid, but builds them all in Ubuntu reporsitories )

Linux Mint is Based on Ubuntu (Mint adds all Ubuntu repositories to the corresponding Ubuntu release and adds a few hundreds packages, their DEs, some utility programs and Firefox and Chromium, 99.9% of available packages come straight from Ubuntu)

Manjaro is based on Arch (Manjaro delays updates from Arch official, but not the AUR)

But those three "based" are way different, so the only information is actually, "has a relation to".

Lets compare Bullseye with Focal (20.04) for some gaming related things.

Bullseye comes with Linux 5.10, while Focal has 5.11 from HWE (and still 5.4 as GA kernel)
Bullseye has Mesa 20.3, while Focal has Mesa 21.0
Bullseye has Nvidia 460.91, while Focal has Nvidia 470.57
Bullseye has Lutris 0.5.8 while Focal has none, you need a PPA, it first was added to Ubuntu in 20.10, or 21.04

the kernel, mesa and nvidia drivers will continue to be upgraded in 20.04 until the first point release of 22.04 for kernel and mesa, 18.04 still gets the newest Nvidia drivers so its probable for the normal 5 years support that nvidia drivers are kept up to date to the newest version now for Ubuntu LTS.
You miss that they will also continue to be updated in Debian via Backports.

Also this is supported for Debian and Ubuntu if you want newer kernels. https://liquorix.net/

Actually for 20.04 being an LTS release.. I would not want them to be updating things. You want the system to be stable for servers. Still one of the main reasons I prefer Debian or RHEL based systems to Ubuntu.

The 'based on' generally means, if the base were to go away, so would that distro. Without the hard work of Arch and Debian, etc, then many other distros would fall.

If you take a look at how many distributions have attempted to make Debian more friendly and have died in the past... there are ALOT! Corel Linux was one of my favorite. But they too couldn't keep something up to date and useful.

Ubuntu just kind of happened to be there at the right place / right time, and didn't try (initially) to take on too much. Qnd Shuttleworth has all that Thawte money...

I did not write the comment you first replied to about that "If you are a gamer, it is still better to stick with with Ubuntu/Pop_OS or Manjaro" My opinion is that people should use what they like and what works for them.

This is gamingonlinux and not serversonlinux so I did not mention that servers per default get the kernel the LTS release originally came with called GA, plus bugfixes, while they do have the option for the HWE rolling kernels, just as desktop users can switch to the GA kernel.

And if that is what you mean with based on, then Ubuntu is not based on Debian, which does not make sense. It is just that as I wrote, without more context not meaning more than "related to".

If Debian and its servers should disappear then Ubuntu still has the build system and source and binary packages for all packages for all still supported releases. They would have to rethink how handle newer versions for packages in the universe repositories, but still have all the already released distributions and the capability to create a new one, but most likely with less packages.

Compare that to Linux Mint if Ubuntu should disappear, or LMDE for their Debian edition of Debian would disappear.
They would loose 99% of the packages available since they do not build complete distributions but add the repositories of the distribution they are based on.

So "based on" in itself has way to many meanings in the distribution world without more context to say more than is "related to"
Ubuntu grabs from Debian Sid every 6 months for their next release, 'Ubuntu-izes' the packages and builds them out to the next release.

So you have Debian Sid -> Ubuntu for 5 months, freeze for one month, release. This is why you shouldn't ever upgrade your $LTS-Version to $LTS-Version+1 until it is at like an extra .1 or .2 (as that is an extra month or two of testing / patching.).


It is not as sequential as you write there. And other parts are wrong too.

First take a look at this 9 year old ask ubuntu answer https://askubuntu.com/a/104299, which has the broad things still right, and gives a good overview without going into details much, but LTS development does not take packages from testing any more, more about that later.

An important point is
QuoteTypically during their development cycle, Ubuntu imports source packages from Debian Unstable (sid). At some point we stop automatic imports and instead pull in fixes manually and then release it as Ubuntu every 6 months.

Then have a look at Impish release schedule
Different parts of the distribution are frozen at different times. The Debian Import Freeze is for example around 2 months before release.

Until release packages can be updated multiple times, so it will be a rare subset of packages that first had the same version 5 months in sid, and also the same version for 5 months in Ubuntu devel.

QuotePrior to this date, new versions of packages will be automatically imported from Debian where they have not been customized for Ubuntu, that is when the version number of the package in the current Ubuntu development branch does not contain the substring "ubuntu" and there is a newer version in Debian.

So the Ubuntu tag in the version is only where there are Ubuntu specific patches in, and those are not automatically imported.

All packages are off course build, those with Ubuntu patches and those without, since Ubuntu builds binary distributions from source packages in its own repositories. This is needed to be able to support them months or even years later, since sid at that point most likely has not that version any more, and it would be a coincidence if a stable Debian release has the same version.

The debian import freeze explanation links to ProposedMigration that explains how new packages do not go directly to updates in the development branch but into proposed first, so devel is in some ways,. but not exactly like Debian testing.

It is a usable distribution during development, much like running Debian sid or testing. I am writing this on impish, the upcoming 21.10 release.

Quoting: slaapliedjeIf Ubuntu would disappear, they'd just go back to using Debian, that's the whole reason LMDE exists. Debian has been around since the mid 90s. It's one of the few that have really not changed their goals over this whole time. It's also the distribution with the most supported packages (unlike Ubuntu, who does not consider anything outside of 'main' to be supported.)
Regarding Mints 2 different distributions, if Debian should go away then LMDE would go away, if Ubuntu would go away then Linux Mint would go away, or at least for both they would have to rethink the whole thing.
That they could use the other if other of Debian and Ubuntu not go away at the same time is off topic to the "based on" discussion.

Quoting: slaapliedjeSomeone above had mentioned that Lutris is going to be available in the next Ubuntu. That's because it was officially packaged for Debian. They basically just inherit what Debian does, and then make changes to their kernel and some other packages, and retag as they build the packages to have _ubuntu_ in them. So even if Debian is considered 'old'. People should pay it some respect for spawning a huge amount of Linux distributions.

I mentioned in this thread that Lutris is in 21.04, and it will be available in 21.10 when it releases too.
This is an important and in my opinion good way that Ubuntu is based on Debian. If you want a new package in Ubuntu you have to get it into Debian first. Its not only to not duplicate work but also to keep Ubuntu close to Debian.

I have already gone into that they do not build packages to have _ubuntu_ in them. The version of Lutris in 21.10 has no ubuntu in it for example: https://packages.ubuntu.com/hirsute/lutris
And while packaging is an important part to create a distribution, its not all, like for example building is important, where I have posted some links already, and we have not got into supporting multiple releases.

If that basically was no work the Popos and Mint for example would probably not rely on Ubuntu repositories for the bulk of their packages.

And I do have a lot of respect of Debian, it was in fact the first Linux distribution I installed on my Amiga in the 90ies.
slaapliedje 24 Aug, 2021
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Quoting: RedfaceI mentioned in this thread that Lutris is in 21.04, and it will be available in 21.10 when it releases too.
This is an important and in my opinion good way that Ubuntu is based on Debian. If you want a new package in Ubuntu you have to get it into Debian first. Its not only to not duplicate work but also to keep Ubuntu close to Debian.

I have already gone into that they do not build packages to have _ubuntu_ in them. The version of Lutris in 21.10 has no ubuntu in it for example: https://packages.ubuntu.com/hirsute/lutris
And while packaging is an important part to create a distribution, its not all, like for example building is important, where I have posted some links already, and we have not got into supporting multiple releases.

If that basically was no work the Popos and Mint for example would probably not rely on Ubuntu repositories for the bulk of their packages.

And I do have a lot of respect of Debian, it was in fact the first Linux distribution I installed on my Amiga in the 90ies.
They still need to pull upstream packages from Debian as Debian has tons of volunteers and some paid developers. So even if they pull the source with debian patches, then patch their own stuff, they'd still go away if Debian did.

What's funny about PopOS, they take Ubunut... then have their own repos. They had Lutris before Ubuntu had it available. I'd have to look at the timeline, but they may have had it packaged before Debian (which I guess leads to the 'gaming centric' statement? I don't know I'd think if it were gaming centric, they would have installed Steam by default. :P

What happens when Ubuntu stops listening to fans at all, and just drops 32bit support completely, like they wanted to? Wonder how many people will leave for another Distro.

I've thought a few times of putting Debian on my Amiga... then figured why bother, I have it on so many other machines. Though one of the funny things is, the non-x86 Linux I always though would miss out on Flash... but now Flash is dead!
Vortex_Acherontic 28 Aug, 2021
Quoting: denyasisThier support for Nvidia drivers was very good compared to my current distro (Opensuse), which seems to struggle everytime the kernel updates.

To be fair, if we talk about Tumbleweed, it's not the distros fault as the same applies for any rolling release at major kernel updates.
Unless someone would actively stop further kernel updates until nvidida might or might not be ready which might take a week or two sometimes.
Nvidia is sometimes just slow in adapting new main line kernels usual this happens from one major version like 5.10 to 5.11 or 5.11 to 5.12.
But usually not from 5.1x.y to 5.1x.z in my experience TW is pretty stabale for a rolling release even on nvidia systems and I never run it on anything with out an nvidia GPUs to be honest 😅

Thankfully openSUSE keeps the last two Kernels around (or more if you told it so) so you can boot with the older Kernel where the nvidia driver module successfully compiles on right from GRUB.

Since nvidia host the driver on their own servers the devs of openSUSE are somewhat out of loop with issues the kernel might have as they can not run OpenQA test for it which would spot those issues.

As debain rarely updates overall and probably not changing any major kernel version until the next big release and even that will run some older Kernel it is obvious it is "more stable" with nvidia drivers. But that also applies to any point release be it Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE Leap or others.

🤓


Last edited by Vortex_Acherontic on 28 August 2021 at 4:30 pm UTC
slaapliedje 31 Aug, 2021
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Quoting: Vortex_AcheronticAs debain rarely updates overall and probably not changing any major kernel version until the next big release and even that will run some older Kernel it is obvious it is "more stable" with nvidia drivers. But that also applies to any point release be it Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE Leap or others.
Even once stable, Debian now officially supports the debian-backports repositories (as discussed in this thread). In which newer kernels and nvidia-drivers are available. Good thing, as while nvidia usually is pretty great at supporting their old cards, you never know if they'll change their minds...

(side note, I'm responding to this in Windows 10 as I needed to do some work in it, and holy crap the fonts look like crap!)
Redface 31 Aug, 2021
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: RedfaceI mentioned in this thread that Lutris is in 21.04, and it will be available in 21.10 when it releases too.
This is an important and in my opinion good way that Ubuntu is based on Debian. If you want a new package in Ubuntu you have to get it into Debian first. Its not only to not duplicate work but also to keep Ubuntu close to Debian.

I have already gone into that they do not build packages to have _ubuntu_ in them. The version of Lutris in 21.10 has no ubuntu in it for example: https://packages.ubuntu.com/hirsute/lutris
And while packaging is an important part to create a distribution, its not all, like for example building is important, where I have posted some links already, and we have not got into supporting multiple releases.

If that basically was no work the Popos and Mint for example would probably not rely on Ubuntu repositories for the bulk of their packages.

And I do have a lot of respect of Debian, it was in fact the first Linux distribution I installed on my Amiga in the 90ies.
They still need to pull upstream packages from Debian as Debian has tons of volunteers and some paid developers. So even if they pull the source with debian patches, then patch their own stuff, they'd still go away if Debian did.

They do not need to pull upstream packages from Debian, its a choice, which prevents some duplicate work in creating the packages, and a way to get a overlap of the Debian and Ubuntu developers.
Without having the packages in sid as well new versions can be maintained in the Ubuntu repositories. Some of the community maintained packages might be dropped, or only available as a snap, but there are still enough packages in main to have a full distribution.

And new source packages are also not needed for the already released distributions, except for the rolling parts like the kernel, firefox and nvidia drivers, but those are updated independent of Debian all the time anyway.

I do not want to repeat all arguments again, and you also wrote that you did not think Ubuntu would go away in a previous post here: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209242

Once you have a Debian source package you also do not have to start from scratch for a new upstream release.
Redface 31 Aug, 2021
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: RedfaceI mentioned in this thread that Lutris is in 21.04, and it will be available in 21.10 when it releases too.
This is an important and in my opinion good way that Ubuntu is based on Debian. If you want a new package in Ubuntu you have to get it into Debian first. Its not only to not duplicate work but also to keep Ubuntu close to Debian.

I have already gone into that they do not build packages to have _ubuntu_ in them. The version of Lutris in 21.10 has no ubuntu in it for example: https://packages.ubuntu.com/hirsute/lutris
And while packaging is an important part to create a distribution, its not all, like for example building is important, where I have posted some links already, and we have not got into supporting multiple releases.

If that basically was no work the Popos and Mint for example would probably not rely on Ubuntu repositories for the bulk of their packages.

And I do have a lot of respect of Debian, it was in fact the first Linux distribution I installed on my Amiga in the 90ies.

What's funny about PopOS, they take Ubunut... then have their own repos. They had Lutris before Ubuntu had it available. I'd have to look at the timeline, but they may have had it packaged before Debian (which I guess leads to the 'gaming centric' statement? I don't know I'd think if it were gaming centric, they would have installed Steam by default. :P


Popos does add the Ubuntu repositories and then has a few hundreds packages they maintain. The user get the bulk of available packages from Ubuntu without Popos in between. Just as Mint, but Popos does at least maintain kernel packages.

Lets see some numbers from my 20.04 Popos install:

 

sudo apt update
Hit:1 http://ppa.launchpad.net/system76/pop/ubuntu focal InRelease
Hit:2 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu focal InRelease                    
Hit:3 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu focal-security InRelease           
Hit:4 http://apt.pop-os.org/proprietary focal InRelease
Hit:5 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu focal-updates InRelease
Hit:6 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu focal-backports InRelease
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree       
Reading state information... Done
All packages are up to date.

Lets see how many packages are in those repositories, here are some articles showing how that can be done:

https://serverfault.com/questions/252333/list-all-packages-from-a-repository-in-ubuntu-debian

https://www.linuxuprising.com/2018/11/how-to-list-all-packages-in-repository.html

The ubuntu repositories have ubuntu and the Popos pop in their name

And these Packages files are available, and just refreshed with sudo apt update

Spoiler, click me
ls /var/lib/apt/lists/*Packages*
/var/lib/apt/lists/apt.pop-os.org_proprietary_dists_focal_main_binary-all_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/apt.pop-os.org_proprietary_dists_focal_main_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/ppa.launchpad.net_system76_pop_ubuntu_dists_focal_main_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/ppa.launchpad.net_system76_pop_ubuntu_dists_focal_main_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-backports_main_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-backports_main_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-backports_universe_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-backports_universe_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_main_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_main_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_multiverse_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_restricted_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_restricted_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_main_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_main_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_multiverse_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_restricted_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_restricted_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_universe_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-security_universe_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_universe_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal_universe_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_main_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_main_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_multiverse_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_multiverse_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_restricted_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_restricted_binary-i386_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_universe_binary-amd64_Packages
/var/lib/apt/lists/us.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_focal-updates_universe_binary-i386_Packages

 


grep ^Package /var/lib/apt/lists/*pop*_Packages | awk '{print $2}' | sort -u| wc -l
454

grep ^Package /var/lib/apt/lists/*ubuntu*_Packages | awk '{print $2}' | sort -u| wc -l
66026


So 0.68% of the available packages are from Popos, and the remaining 99.32% from Ubuntu, and that is by counting the packages from the Popos PPA on launchpad as Popos even those also come from Ubuntu servers, but not the distribution directly. Popos uploaded the source package which then was build on the Ubuntu launchpad servers.

Contrast that to the 100% of available packages when you install Ubuntu come from Ubuntu servers, build by Ubuntu server from source packages in Ubuntu repositories. With most of those source packages shared with Debian experimental sid for new versions, but not those in the released distributions.
Redface 31 Aug, 2021
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: RedfaceI mentioned in this thread that Lutris is in 21.04, and it will be available in 21.10 when it releases too.
This is an important and in my opinion good way that Ubuntu is based on Debian. If you want a new package in Ubuntu you have to get it into Debian first. Its not only to not duplicate work but also to keep Ubuntu close to Debian.

I have already gone into that they do not build packages to have _ubuntu_ in them. The version of Lutris in 21.10 has no ubuntu in it for example: https://packages.ubuntu.com/hirsute/lutris
And while packaging is an important part to create a distribution, its not all, like for example building is important, where I have posted some links already, and we have not got into supporting multiple releases.

If that basically was no work the Popos and Mint for example would probably not rely on Ubuntu repositories for the bulk of their packages.

And I do have a lot of respect of Debian, it was in fact the first Linux distribution I installed on my Amiga in the 90ies.

What happens when Ubuntu stops listening to fans at all, and just drops 32bit support completely, like they wanted to? Wonder how many people will leave for another Distro.

Predicting the future is hard, but we can look at the past.

They never wanted to drop 32bit completely, see the announcement for dropping the i386 architecture
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2019-June/001261.html

QuoteWhile this means we will not provide 32-bit builds of new upstream versions
of libraries, there are a number of ways that 32-bit applications can
continue to be made available to users of later Ubuntu releases, as detailed
in [4]. We will be working to polish the 32-bit support story over the
course of the 19.10 development cycle. To follow the evolution of this
support, you can participate in the discourse thread at [5].



The controversy was not about that it would be impossible to run 32 bit programs, but that the way it apparently would be done, would both put to much on other developers like Valve and Wine, but also users.

See for example from Valve https://steamcommunity.com/app/221410/discussions/0/1640915206447625383/

QuoteTo provide some background, support for 32-bit libraries is required in order to run not only the Steam client, but also the thousands of games available on Steam that only support 32-bit environments. Enabling the Steam client to run in pure 64-bit environments, while feasible, would leave the vast majority of the current Steam library inaccessible to such users without an additional compatibility layer.


Ubuntu wrote about additional compatibility layers, see above, and Valve then continues to write about their own.

QuoteTo that effect, Steam already bundles a lot of the dependencies needed by 32-bit games, but it currently relies on some key components being available on the host system: a 32-bit glibc, ELF loader, Mesa and NVIDIA graphics driver libraries, to name a few. We've been investigating ways to avoid these system dependencies for a while now, by looking into light containerization and other approaches. The announced change by Ubuntu would have required us to fully complete such a system in the 19.10 release time frame, as it would be required there to maintain functionality without requiring users to reinstall Steam through another method.


And one of the Wine developers: https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147898.html

QuoteIf they don't, then I have a suggestion for our packages: use the
Steam runtime. I see a lot of upsides: They've already solved this
problem; we don't need to re-invent this wheel. Ubuntu is already
working with them to support the use-case. The project is open-source,
well-funded, and has a clear motivation to continue being updated and
functional for the long-term. And people are already building and
running Wine in the runtime today.



And I did not like it either as a user, but I also hated that whole lot of misinformation being spread then. One of my comments to one of the threads on GOL: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2019/06/canonical-are-now-saying-ubuntus-32bit-is-not-being-entirely-dropped-32bit-libraries-will-be-frozen/comment_id=157675

QuoteThat is not backing out, it is a clarification of their plans. They never said that 32 bit programs would not be able tun run any more. A lot of us are worried that the new ways will be Inferior to what we have today, especially in regard to how complicated it will be for users. And I still are.

A lot of online publication and posters claimed that it would be impossible, but this is Linux not Mac or Windows so there will always be ways for users to do what they want differently than their distribution providers. Do not believe everything you read.

But distributions are about convenience, after all we could all do a Linux from scratch installation and not use any distribution after all. So if they make it a lot harder for users we should go elsewhere.

P.S I did split my answers up in three because I got some error about a security token when posting all in one, but that could have been that I took a long time to write it too.
slaapliedje 1 Sep, 2021
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Quoting: Redface
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: RedfaceI mentioned in this thread that Lutris is in 21.04, and it will be available in 21.10 when it releases too.
This is an important and in my opinion good way that Ubuntu is based on Debian. If you want a new package in Ubuntu you have to get it into Debian first. Its not only to not duplicate work but also to keep Ubuntu close to Debian.

I have already gone into that they do not build packages to have _ubuntu_ in them. The version of Lutris in 21.10 has no ubuntu in it for example: https://packages.ubuntu.com/hirsute/lutris
And while packaging is an important part to create a distribution, its not all, like for example building is important, where I have posted some links already, and we have not got into supporting multiple releases.

If that basically was no work the Popos and Mint for example would probably not rely on Ubuntu repositories for the bulk of their packages.

And I do have a lot of respect of Debian, it was in fact the first Linux distribution I installed on my Amiga in the 90ies.
They still need to pull upstream packages from Debian as Debian has tons of volunteers and some paid developers. So even if they pull the source with debian patches, then patch their own stuff, they'd still go away if Debian did.

They do not need to pull upstream packages from Debian, its a choice, which prevents some duplicate work in creating the packages, and a way to get a overlap of the Debian and Ubuntu developers.
Without having the packages in sid as well new versions can be maintained in the Ubuntu repositories. Some of the community maintained packages might be dropped, or only available as a snap, but there are still enough packages in main to have a full distribution.

And new source packages are also not needed for the already released distributions, except for the rolling parts like the kernel, firefox and nvidia drivers, but those are updated independent of Debian all the time anyway.

I do not want to repeat all arguments again, and you also wrote that you did not think Ubuntu would go away in a previous post here: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2021/08/debian-11-qbullseyeq-is-officially-out-now/comment_id=209242

Once you have a Debian source package you also do not have to start from scratch for a new upstream release.
I'm not arguing. Stating how it is. Debian has a lot more volunteers than Ubuntu does. If Debian went away, what I said specifically was that Ubuntu and it's derivatives would suffer, as they would lose all that support. There are many who contribute to Debian who will not contribute directly to Ubuntu. Likely for the same reasons Valve originally chose Debian for SteamOS and not Ubuntu.

(Instead of quoting your other messages... I'll summarize)
Ubuntu wants everyone to use snaps. The end. No one wants to use snaps though. Which is why Mint, PopOS and others have basically just used the repos of Ubuntu and do not enable snaps by default. That is the main difference to me and many of their users, is they don't enforce snap use.

I personally use PopOS on my laptop as it has one of the best integrations for that Optimus crap that everyone in the Linux community who owns one of those laptops hate with a passion. It works quite well in PopOS, I just wish my dual-boot RHEL8 would work as well, I have to basically switch to Discrete Graphics mode in the BIOS for RHEL to work, and then the battery is eaten too quickly and the thinkpad gets hot...

I'm well aware of their plans for dropping 32bit, I read all the things on it. Sure they weren't going to 'completely' drop it. But they wanted to gimp it.. onward to their step to obliterate it. Ubuntu WANTS to be the next Apple on the desktop, so they try to follow those trends, but unlike with Apple, there is really no need to drop 32bit support in Linux.
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