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Some interesting Linux industry news for you here, as the long road towards Wayland by default everywhere is taking another big step with Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) removing the Xorg server and other X servers (except Xwayland) from RHEL 10 and the following releases.

From their announcement by developer Carlos Soriano Sanchez posted November 27th:

We want to recognize the significant effort all these organizations and individuals have made, especially the rest of the upstream community, without whom this project would never be so mature. This effort gave us the confidence to first make Wayland default for most use cases in RHEL 8, followed up with the deprecating of Xorg server in RHEL 9, with the intention of its removal in a future release. Earlier this year (2023), as part of our RHEL 10 planning, we made a study to understand Wayland’s status, not only from an infrastructure perspective, but also from an ecosystem perspective. The result of this evaluation is that, while there are still some gaps and applications that need some level of adaptation, we believe the Wayland infrastructure and ecosystem are in good shape, and that we’re on a good path for the identified blockers to be resolved by the time RHEL 10 is out, planned to be released on the first half of 2025.

With this, we’ve decided to remove Xorg server and other X servers (except Xwayland) from RHEL 10 and the following releases. Xwayland should be able to handle most X11 clients that won’t immediately be ported to Wayland, and if needed, our customers will be able to stay on RHEL 9 for its full life cycle while resolving the specifics needed for transitioning to a Wayland ecosystem. It’s important to note that “Xorg Server” and “X11” are not synonymous, X11 is a protocol that will continue to be supported through Xwayland, while the Xorg Server is one of the implementations of the X11 protocol.

Red Hat and their engineers have their fingers in many pies across the Linux space, so this is a pretty big move, and one they say will enable them to "tackle problems such as HDR, increased security, setups with mixed low and high density displays or very high density displays, better GPU/Display hot-plugging, better gestures and scrolling, and so on" — which of course will end up benefiting everyone because that's how open source works.

Have you fully switched over to Wayland yet?

Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Tags: Distro News, Misc
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tohur Dec 7, 2023
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: Purple Library Guy
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better
In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg
I'm running Sid. I switch between Xorg and Wayland often, as some software is not working right under Wayland. And literally do not see any real performance differences (Granted, I'm also running a 7800 XT, Ryzen 9 5900X and 32gb of ram. Not the latest, by any means, but not a slouch enough to notice a few bits of slowdown anywhere in Gnome or KDE (I also like to switch between those for different reasons).)

It's funny that you say that Plasma Wayland is the best, considering they were so far behind Gnome / GTK on implementing them.

It could very much be one of those psychological things. Where someone says there is a speed difference and so you notice one, "Sure, I see it!" Kind of like seeing Jesus in a piece of bread? :P

But yes, if you knew how XFree86 evolved into Xorg, and the reasons why... Wayland sounds like they were just lazy and decided to dump Xorg for a newfangled thing. Xorg, at one point, was the 'New awesome and will fix all the problems because it's modular!'

Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people have died and a lot of new people have started using Linux and have been over promised for all these things... Until Wayland can get the damn clipboard to behave like X11, I won't be able to use it full time...

Edit: Just in case you also think "well Debian Sid is still ancient!" I also have Arch on the same system...

Running Sid? In my experience things break quite often in Sid and should NOT be what you are basing your opinions on because running a Unstable distro your literally asking for things NOT to work .. my suggestion if you want a rolling release pick an actual Rolling distro like Arch, Opensuse and many others that actually release packages with a bit more stability LMAO.. Honestly can't beleive I wasted time and my breath and here you are LITERALLY running an UNSTABLE distro 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Getting a bit rude there IMO.

Rude how.. like wut??! how is spitting facts being rude? I did not call the guy any names.. pointed out Sid is unstable and NOT a rolling release. and also pointed out from my point of view I wasted my time and breath trying to point things out to someone complaining about something being "broken" and yet here they are running an UNSTABLE distro.. don't tell me you are the type to take caps as "yelling" lol
Well, anyone who actually declares Debian Sid (unstable) as an actual unstable distribution has never ran Debian Sid or compared it to Fedora. I've had far less breakages running Debian Sid than I ever have running Fedora. Arch has had more breakages than Debian Sid. I can't stand Yast for very long, so I can't really say much about Tumbleweed.

1) I know what I'm doing. 2) the only time Sid really breaks is right after a new stable is released, because there is a flood of new packages that were sitting in experimental.

By the way, you also ignored that I also run Arch in a triple boot (along with the OS that shall not be named). I also run many other operating systems in my day to day, and Debian 'unstable' is one of the more stable operating systems on the planet. You do know that Ubuntu pulls from Debian Unstable, right? Like Ubuntu wouldn't exist without Debian Sid?

I have ran Sid, ran it for about a month last year and several times over the years.. always ended in same result.. packages breaking and uninstalling Sid.. Sid is unstable its NOT a release meant for everyday use and kills the point to Debian thus its unstable nature.. You simply can NOT use Sid as an example of broken features when its pretty common for packages to be broken on Sid


Last edited by tohur on 7 December 2023 at 3:38 am UTC
Shmerl Dec 7, 2023
Point of Debian is a moot thing. A lot of people use Sid or testing for desktop purposes. You wouldn't want to use Debian stable for that purpose at all.

But, it's not a newbie friendly distro to use. I'd appreciate Debian testing becoming more officially desktop targeted distro (than Sid). But Debian developers never had enough resources or desire to do that.


Last edited by Shmerl on 7 December 2023 at 3:42 am UTC
tohur Dec 7, 2023
Quoting: ShmerlPoint of Debian is a moot thing. A lot of people use Sid or testing for desktop purposes. You wouldn't want to use Debian stable for that purpose at all.

But, it's not an newbie friendly distro to use.

And those people understand the risks.. this guy seems to not care or ignore those risk when sitting here complaining about things (wayland) being broken. and let alone the fact hes using GNOME which is about the worst wayland implementation there is


Last edited by tohur on 7 December 2023 at 3:44 am UTC
Shmerl Dec 7, 2023
I'd agree about Gnome not being the best option. I haven't followed Gnome progress in a while, but someone told me it doesn't even have minimizing windows concept now. Stuff like CSD and such also never made a lot of sense to me.


Last edited by Shmerl on 7 December 2023 at 3:46 am UTC
tohur Dec 7, 2023
Quoting: ShmerlI'd agree about Gnome not being the best option. I haven't followed Gnome progress in a while, but someone told me it doesn't even have minimizing windows concept now. Stuff like CSD and such also never made a lot of sense to me.

Yea Wayland on GNOME lacks alot and is crazy they are talking about getting rid of the Xorg session LMAO.. And good luck gaming on GNOME wayland as its input lag is terrible since Vsync can not be turned off in GNOME wayland like we can turn it off on Plasma .. Yea CSDs are stupid as heck lol.
Adutchman Dec 7, 2023
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better
In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

I think that isn't true. The reason we need something new is simple: Xorg was released in 2004. Pretty much everything is different now and with software, once it starts doing things that weren't concievable when it was designed, things start falling apart. "Modularity" isn't a checkbox, it is a relative thing. What a module was supposed to be was also thought up in 2004, so that is also inadequate. In 204, screens were 480p, screensharing did not exist, security was not really a designconsideration, VR was still science fiction and Linux desktop Linux was still very obscure. Stating that creating something new was just because people wanted something new is not really fair IMO.
Eike Dec 7, 2023
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Quoting: ShmerlThere is an explicit setting for keeping those clipboards separate or not. I usually keep them separate same as X11 does:

Nice!

It would probably need three more decades to get used to it, but then, having one clipboard and not two depending on which keys you used does sound reasonable!

Is the option Wayland only?
Eike Dec 7, 2023
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Quoting: ShmerlPoint of Debian is a moot thing. A lot of people use Sid or testing for desktop purposes. You wouldn't want to use Debian stable for that purpose at all.

But... I do & I'm happy with it. :)
tohur Dec 7, 2023
Quoting: Adutchman
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better
In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

I think that isn't true. The reason we need something new is simple: Xorg was released in 2004. Pretty much everything is different now and with software, once it starts doing things that weren't concievable when it was designed, things start falling apart. "Modularity" isn't a checkbox, it is a relative thing. What a module was supposed to be was also thought up in 2004, so that is also inadequate. In 204, screens were 480p, screensharing did not exist, security was not really a designconsideration, VR was still science fiction and Linux desktop Linux was still very obscure. Stating that creating something new was just because people wanted something new is not really fair IMO.

LMAO you missed that date by like 20 years bruh.. X11.. aka Xorg was released in the 80s..
Shmerl Dec 7, 2023
Quoting: EikeIs the option Wayland only?

It probably is Wayland only, but I haven't tested it.
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