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Some interesting Linux industry news for you here, as the long road towards Wayland by default everywhere is taking another big step with Red Hat Enterprise Linux (RHEL) removing the Xorg server and other X servers (except Xwayland) from RHEL 10 and the following releases.

From their announcement by developer Carlos Soriano Sanchez posted November 27th:

We want to recognize the significant effort all these organizations and individuals have made, especially the rest of the upstream community, without whom this project would never be so mature. This effort gave us the confidence to first make Wayland default for most use cases in RHEL 8, followed up with the deprecating of Xorg server in RHEL 9, with the intention of its removal in a future release. Earlier this year (2023), as part of our RHEL 10 planning, we made a study to understand Wayland’s status, not only from an infrastructure perspective, but also from an ecosystem perspective. The result of this evaluation is that, while there are still some gaps and applications that need some level of adaptation, we believe the Wayland infrastructure and ecosystem are in good shape, and that we’re on a good path for the identified blockers to be resolved by the time RHEL 10 is out, planned to be released on the first half of 2025.

With this, we’ve decided to remove Xorg server and other X servers (except Xwayland) from RHEL 10 and the following releases. Xwayland should be able to handle most X11 clients that won’t immediately be ported to Wayland, and if needed, our customers will be able to stay on RHEL 9 for its full life cycle while resolving the specifics needed for transitioning to a Wayland ecosystem. It’s important to note that “Xorg Server” and “X11” are not synonymous, X11 is a protocol that will continue to be supported through Xwayland, while the Xorg Server is one of the implementations of the X11 protocol.

Red Hat and their engineers have their fingers in many pies across the Linux space, so this is a pretty big move, and one they say will enable them to "tackle problems such as HDR, increased security, setups with mixed low and high density displays or very high density displays, better GPU/Display hot-plugging, better gestures and scrolling, and so on" — which of course will end up benefiting everyone because that's how open source works.

Have you fully switched over to Wayland yet?

Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
Tags: Distro News, Misc
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133 comments
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slaapliedje Nov 30, 2023
Quoting: Soulprayer
Quoting: slaapliedjeI use a Nitrokey. Copy/Paste in it is broken under Wayland.
I wonder if Redhat has Nitrokey-Users
Ha, I wonder if anyone who uses Redhat actually uses it with a GUI, or is on a new enough version for them to be using Wayland. I've installed it for testing to make sure some scripting I needed for work would do what I want it to, and am lazy so install the full desktop. They have a funky enough support things that I've been paying the 50 bucks a year for it. Even though they eventually allowed a free Developer version. But it has such a limited amount of packages, I still go back to Debian...
slaapliedje Nov 30, 2023
Quoting: BlackBloodRum
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: SoulprayerI was already unhappy that EndeavourOS is dropping XFCE support.
But i will always love XFCE as my favorite desktop.

according to PCSX2 developers, Wayland is "super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster" and have disabled it in their distributions.
But:
QuotePCSX2 still supports Wayland. It just prefers the XCB/XWayland platform by default. You can set the I_WANT_A_BROKEN_WAYLAND_UI environment variable and experience the brokenness for yourself on the AppImage builds, or add the wayland socket to the flatpak.
One of the 'fun' little breakages I've found... I use a Nitrokey. Copy/Paste in it is broken under Wayland. The way it works under Xorg, I can right click on the tray icon, select password slot label, and the password is copied into the clipboard...

Under Wayland, this doesn't work at all, and the only way I can get it to work is to open the full UI, go to the slot where it's saved, click show password, then copy and paste it that way. That goes from 1 click to like 8... all because Wayland hasn't implemented all of the Xorg clipboard tricks.
Wayland may not be entirely to blame here.

KeePassXC has similar functionality, where you can select an entry, click copy and then paste it elsewhere. It also prevents it being added to clipboard history, and clears it out of your clipboard after a set time.

It does all this on Wayland just fine. So, perhaps Nitrokey could follow a similar method?
That's actually my work flow, use the saved nitrokey password to unlock KeePassXC. I think the reason it doesn't work in nitrokey is because it's still using an old version of Qt that hasn't been updated to be Wayland 'aware'. I may see if I can recompile it on my system to see if that fixes it, assuming it'll compile clean with a newer Qt.
tohur Nov 30, 2023
Quoting: RenardDesMersI was shopping for a new monitor for black Friday and was debating with myself about how useful would HDR and Freesync features be since Wayland can't support those yet and I don't really know when they'll get decent support.
Hopefully the wayland folks remember about the gamers when prioritizing the missing features.

Wayland supports Freesync just fine, at least on KDE and honestly Wayland on KDE IMHO is better then any other implementation as good luck having a good gaming experience on GNOME waylay with all its input lag since on GNOME you can't turn off Vsync in wayland lol
slaapliedje Nov 30, 2023
Quoting: whizseX11 was of course in contrast to Wayland loved by all and never faced any criticism.

QuoteIf the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that.

QuoteThis is what happens when software with good intentions goes bad. It victimizes innocent users by distorting their perception of what is and what is not good software. This malignant window system must be destroyed.
Oh, wait, maybe not.
What is hilarious is the fact that Xorg was created based on XFree86 being this big monolithic thing that no one could keep updated. Xorg was supposed to be the new modular thing, where individual modules could be upgraded indefinitely and improvements could be made...

My personal theory; a lot of the old hat people that worked on X11R6 and helped with XFree86 and Xorg have either died off or retired, so Wayland was created for the younger people to take up the mantle, and they didn't want to just ride the wave of the old fame, and created a new project.

Sure there were some good reasons behind it, but oof... it's taken it's time and still not really ready.
reaperx7 Dec 1, 2023
I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.
tohur Dec 1, 2023
Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better


Last edited by tohur on 1 December 2023 at 10:55 pm UTC
Adutchman Dec 3, 2023
Quoting: whizseX11 was of course in contrast to Wayland loved by all and never faced any criticism.

QuoteIf the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that.

QuoteThis is what happens when software with good intentions goes bad. It victimizes innocent users by distorting their perception of what is and what is not good software. This malignant window system must be destroyed.
Oh, wait, maybe not.

That was an hillarious read, thanks
slaapliedje Dec 5, 2023
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better
In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.
tohur Dec 5, 2023
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better
In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg


Last edited by tohur on 5 December 2023 at 10:49 pm UTC
slaapliedje Dec 6, 2023
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: slaapliedje
Quoting: tohur
Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better
In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg
I'm running Sid. I switch between Xorg and Wayland often, as some software is not working right under Wayland. And literally do not see any real performance differences (Granted, I'm also running a 7800 XT, Ryzen 9 5900X and 32gb of ram. Not the latest, by any means, but not a slouch enough to notice a few bits of slowdown anywhere in Gnome or KDE (I also like to switch between those for different reasons).)

It's funny that you say that Plasma Wayland is the best, considering they were so far behind Gnome / GTK on implementing them.

It could very much be one of those psychological things. Where someone says there is a speed difference and so you notice one, "Sure, I see it!" Kind of like seeing Jesus in a piece of bread? :P

But yes, if you knew how XFree86 evolved into Xorg, and the reasons why... Wayland sounds like they were just lazy and decided to dump Xorg for a newfangled thing. Xorg, at one point, was the 'New awesome and will fix all the problems because it's modular!'

Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people have died and a lot of new people have started using Linux and have been over promised for all these things... Until Wayland can get the damn clipboard to behave like X11, I won't be able to use it full time...

Edit: Just in case you also think "well Debian Sid is still ancient!" I also have Arch on the same system...


Last edited by slaapliedje on 6 December 2023 at 5:45 am UTC
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