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Pretty interesting update from Linus --
mirv commented on 19 September 2018 at 7:58 am UTC

jarhead_h
mirv@jarhead_h:

There's a difference between being a harsh taskmaster, and being insulting. There's absolutely no reason to insult and put people down for mistakes. There's no reason why telling people trying to do improper things means you have to berate them. It's just as easy to keep it technical, keep it professional, and make decisions without insulting or being derogatory.

Put another way, if I disagreed with you, should I then verbally abuse you? I think you would be quick to take offense.

That depends. Are you my boss, and have I screwed up? Yes and yes? Then abuse is exactly what I would expect. Especially if the screw up was a repeat one.

A couple of things I think you aren't understanding here, or otherwise misrepresenting. Linus isn't the boss of these people. He can be considered the boss of Linux, but he doesn't pay contributors.

Then who is to say someone has screwed up? Much of the disagreements stem from opinions on direction of development. It's subjective. So "screwed up" isn't something that can be applied to differences in viewpoint.

Then let's assume Linus is a boss, which implies a company hierarchy. Companies have codes of conduct, and for good reason. Governments have laws governing workplace treatment, and for good reason. And were you aware that even Linux has had a Code of Conflict for a few years now? Here it is:

https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=b0bc65729070b9cbdbb53ff042984a3c545a0e34

Now I happen to not like enforced codes of conduct, and there are some who argue that it's actually removing freedoms by including one. I'm also pragmatic; that Linus is taking this break and that a code of conduct (which I've read, and is not unreasonable at all) is being formally introduced is precisely because it's apparent that something _isn't_ working and there are attempts to rectify the situation.

damarrin commented on 19 September 2018 at 8:38 am UTC

There is a difference between saying "this code is crap because a b c, please fix this and it will be considered again" and the things Linus has been saying. They will be equally effective as regards the quality of code in Linux if in both cases the code is simply not accepted.

No-one is born perfect and fully formed and the expectation that someone who is just starting with kernel development will be immediately able to satisfy the code maintainer's expectations is nonsensical.

lucinos commented on 19 September 2018 at 9:05 am UTC

damarrinThere is a difference between saying "this code is crap because a b c, please fix this and it will be considered again" and the things Linus has been saying. They will be equally effective as regards the quality of code in Linux if in both cases the code is simply not accepted.

No-one is born perfect and fully formed and the expectation that someone who is just starting with kernel development will be immediately able to satisfy the code maintainer's expectations is nonsensical.

I do not find any sense on the argument about the hypothetical kernel development who is just starting. There is an established hierarchy and there are only a few people that Linus does care about. The rest will have to go through that road and that means no contact with Linus at all anyway. So all this makes no sense.

Also there are many cases (maybe most of the time) that you just do not want to accept the code. You do not want the developer to spend any time in any kind of fix because you are not going to accept no matter what. The sooner to clearly stop him the better.

damarrin commented on 19 September 2018 at 9:58 am UTC

lucinosAlso there are many cases (maybe most of the time) that you just do not want to accept the code. You do not want the developer to spend any time in any kind of fix because you are not going to accept no matter what. The sooner to clearly stop him the better.

I fail to see how this has anything to do with the matter at hand.

Also, are only a select few allowed to submit code to the kernel?

lucinos commented on 19 September 2018 at 10:46 am UTC

damarrinAlso, are only a select few allowed to submit code to the kernel?

Actually there is only one guy who is "really" submitting code to the kernel and that is Linus. Now that he left for a while he said who is in charge (I think Greg, I am not checking if I am wrong). So at any moment one guy and only one is accountable. That makes a clear hierarchy. Of course the code is GPL so anyone can patch and distribute but then it would be a fork. (many distros actually do that to the kernel but so far there has been no real fork in the sense that they keep getting the realises from Linus and do their little modifications. only google with android was close to really be a fork but to maintain a real fork would be too expensive.)

But we are not in the 90s. You do not send a patch directly to Linus. You contact with the people that are more closely related with what the patch does and the code reach Linus through a network of trust. There are only very few people Linus trust and will get code (probably without even checking that code most of the times).

wvstolzing commented on 19 September 2018 at 10:47 am UTC

lucifertdarkthis is a show of weakness on his part & they're never going to let it go now, I'd say he's done for good.

Yeah, surely this is the beginning of the end for Linus the Gorilla.... It's only a matter of time now, that a younger male from the troop will step up to take his place. Such is the way of the jungle.

Salvatos commented on 19 September 2018 at 2:07 pm UTC

mirvI'm also pragmatic; that Linus is taking this break and that a code of conduct (which I've read, and is not unreasonable at all) is being formally introduced is precisely because it's apparent that something _isn't_ working and there are attempts to rectify the situation.
This is what baffles me regarding people crying about SJWs and the death of the kernel. The new code of conduct essentially boils down to "don't discriminate or attack others while on our plaftorm or representing our community." That's like... basic civility that should apply anywhere. Assuming the people there were already civilized and humane, there's no reason anything should even change in the day-to-day. Evidently, Linus himself was lacking in that department so he's taking time off to reorient himself. It shouldn't stop him or anyone else from being just as critical and preserving high standards; he might just be less of a prick about it.

rkfg commented on 19 September 2018 at 2:13 pm UTC

SalvatosThis is what baffles me regarding people crying about SJWs and the death of the kernel. The new code of conduct essentially boils down to "don't discriminate or attack others while on our plaftorm or representing our community." That's like... basic civility that should apply anywhere. Assuming the people there were already civilized and humane, there's no reason anything should even change in the day-to-day.
Have you carefully read it? Please take a look at the Scope section. This is a clearly stated witch hunt intent. I'll quote:
QuoteThis Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.
It's not just about mailing list. Wherever you might post anything irrelevant to the project but using your e-mail or any other account, you'll be called out for that. And it's not a rare thing to happen even for your past messages from years ago. You'll need to watch your mouth (or fingers) each second if you don't want to be kicked out of the project and use that "inclusive genderless language" everywhere. Good luck with that.

And yeah, "when an individual is representing the project or its community" is intentionally very vague, it can be used basically anywhere if needed. And it will be.

mirv commented on 19 September 2018 at 2:26 pm UTC

rkfg
SalvatosThis is what baffles me regarding people crying about SJWs and the death of the kernel. The new code of conduct essentially boils down to "don't discriminate or attack others while on our plaftorm or representing our community." That's like... basic civility that should apply anywhere. Assuming the people there were already civilized and humane, there's no reason anything should even change in the day-to-day.
Have you carefully read it? Please take a look at the Scope section. This is a clearly stated witch hunt intent. I'll quote:
QuoteThis Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.
It's not just about mailing list. Wherever you might post anything irrelevant to the project but using your e-mail or any other account, you'll be called out for that. And it's not a rare thing to happen even for your past messages from years ago. You'll need to watch your mouth (or fingers) each second if you don't want to be kicked out of the project and use that "inclusive genderless language" everywhere. Good luck with that.

And yeah, "when an individual is representing the project or its community" is intentionally very vague, it can be used basically anywhere if needed. And it will be.

There's nothing in there regarding "inclusive genderless language". At all. So all you're doing is spreading a bit of FUD here. Being civil when _officially_ representing a project is not unreasonable at all, and even without an official code of conduct is pretty much what most people will expect. As Salvatos says, there's no reason anything should in practice change.

Salvatos commented on 19 September 2018 at 3:08 pm UTC

rkfg
QuoteThis Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.
It's not just about mailing list. Wherever you might post anything irrelevant to the project but using your e-mail or any other account, you'll be called out for that.
But that's wrong. It specifically says that it applies only when you are officially representing the project (or interact within project spaces in any capacity). i.e. say you're posting on Twitter, you can say whatever you like on your private account, but not from the official account of your project. That's exactly the kind of protection many companies give themselves to avoid their employees giving them a bad name, if not more lenient.

And as mirv already pointed out, you added the bit about "genderless" - it only asks to be welcoming and inclusive, which frankly is subjective enough that I don't see it being enforced for anything short of telling newcomers to fuck off, unless the people in charge are trigger-happy SJWs themselves. In which case I'd say, write it off and fork it.

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