Quoting: Doc AngeloNo matter how much you know someone, you never really now if he actually likes being hugged by everyone at a party or not.

I see how that might happen in a party, but I don't see the relevance. People might do all kinds of things in a party that would be inappropriate if they were representing the Linux kernel community.

Quoting: Doc AngeloI agree for the Linux community. But for the FreeBSD community, this is a reality right now. Brought in with the same kind of reasoning.

I don't really want to discuss FreeBSD or their policy. First of all, I don't know their situation well enough to comment on it (not really interested either), and secondly, it's like using Liechtenstein as evidence that something is wrong in Germany. These are two different communities with different leaderships and different CoC documents.

Quoting: tuubiI see how that might happen in a party, but I don't see the relevance. People might do all kinds of things in a party that would be inappropriate if they were representing the Linux kernel community.

"Representing"? What is that supposed to mean? This is about the regular communication.

Quoting: tuubiI don't really want to discuss FreeBSD or their policy. First of all, I don't know their situation well enough to comment on it (not really interested either), and secondly, it's like using Liechtenstein as evidence that something is wrong in Germany. These are two different communities with different leaderships and different CoC documents.

I can't follow that one. I see definitive similarities. We don't have to agree on that, though.

Quoting: Doc Angelo

Quoting: tuubiI see how that might happen in a party, but I don't see the relevance. People might do all kinds of things in a party that would be inappropriate if they were representing the Linux kernel community.

"Representing"? What is that supposed to mean? This is about the regular communication.

Just quoting the CoC I assume we're still talking about. But maybe you were talking about hugging in a party and meant talking about hugging on a mailing list? I assumed a more physical situation like a conference where you take part as a member of the Linux kernel community, in which case the CoC might actually be relevant.

Quoting: Doc Angelo

Quoting: tuubiI don't really want to discuss FreeBSD or their policy. First of all, I don't know their situation well enough to comment on it (not really interested either), and secondly, it's like using Liechtenstein as evidence that something is wrong in Germany. These are two different communities with different leaderships and different CoC documents.

I can't follow that one. I see definitive similarities. We don't have to agree on that, though.

FreeBSD isn't Linux, and saying something will happen to Linux because it happened to FreeBSD (despite their differences) is a bit of a leap.

Quoting: tuubiJust quoting the CoC I assume we're still talking about. But maybe you were talking about hugging in a party and meant talking about hugging on a mailing list? I assumed a more physical situation like a conference where you take part as a member of the Linux kernel community, in which case the CoC might actually be relevant.

The Linux CoC is meant for any communication and social interaction, regardless where it happens. Be it online or not.

Quoting: tuubiFreeBSD isn't Linux, and saying something will happen to Linux because it happened to FreeBSD (despite their differences) is a bit of a leap.

I get that you see it this way. I strongly disagree in this case.

Quoting: Doc Angelo

Quoting: tuubiJust quoting the CoC I assume we're still talking about. But maybe you were talking about hugging in a party and meant talking about hugging on a mailing list? I assumed a more physical situation like a conference where you take part as a member of the Linux kernel community, in which case the CoC might actually be relevant.

The Linux CoC is meant for any communication and social interaction, regardless where it happens. Be it online or not.

From [the CoC](https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html#scope):

Scope

This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

Quoting: tuubiAnd some settings are more formal than others, which means we'll just have to control our impulses.

Exactly. Most of what is being asked for here is just the bare standard of professional behaviour.

Quoting: tuubiFrom [the CoC](https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html#scope):

Scope

This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

Do I get that right that you suggest that talks on the mailing list is not something that this CoC is written for? That communication on the mailing list is not meant with this CoC?

Quoting: HamishExactly. Most of what is being asked for here is just the bare standard of professional behaviour.

"Professional" behavior is different for everyone. It's different for people from the US, from Europe, I heard some interesting examples from Belgium and also Finland. Apart from that, everybody has a different view on that. I know people who have a completely different take on this than I have. I've heard people uttering something like "Never let other people know that you don't know what you're doing" as being professional. And that was from a person with a kind of medical background.

It's not a useful expression. At least not in such a diverse and big community. There is no "common ground" for "being professional".

Quoting: GuestWhat i am doing right now is probably futile but i will say it anyway: I believe you are losing your time because there is no communication between the last posters of this thread. ;)

Yeah, you're right. I got that feeling also, but sometimes I can't help myself and still try. I'm sick today and maybe I should just rest and leave it be. :)

Quoting: Doc Angelo

Quoting: tuubiFrom [the CoC](https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct.html#scope):

Scope

This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

Do I get that right that you suggest that talks on the mailing list is not something that this CoC is written for? That communication on the mailing list is not meant with this CoC?

No, you don't get that right. Why would I suggest something like that?

That was a direct quote from the CoC, and project mailing lists seem like obvious "project spaces". Naturally you should follow their code of conduct there. Does that limit your contributions to the project in some meaningful way?

I quoted the scope to let you reconsider your claim that "The Linux CoC is meant for any communication and social interaction, regardless where it happens. Be it online or not." Clearly that is false.

Quoting: GuestWhat i am doing right now is probably futile but i will say it anyway: I believe you are losing your time because there is no communication between the last posters of this thread. ;)

Is it not proper communication if people disagree with you?

Quoting: GuestHaven't had time to read through everyone's comments here but do agree with the few in the beginning that this new CoC is just plain bad.

Did you also not have time to read the CoC? Because that seems to be a trend among the naysayers.

A couple of further notes:

This is not about the national politics of whatever country you are from. It's about limiting offensive behaviour to keep communication focused and productive in a development community. There's a huge difference.

Secondly, civilizations haven't fought that many wars to gain their independence and freedom of speech. That's what often happens in movies and novels, but only rarely in real life. They've done so for all kinds of reasons, but I bet no war has been fought to preserve the perceived right to offend people in development communities.

This is rather interesting: https://www.greaterthancode.com/2018/04/11/075-code-and-witchcraft/

This is an interview with the person behind the [Contributor Covenant](https://www.contributor-covenant.org/), on which the new Linux CoC is based. "Code witch" is meant absolutely literal. https://twitter.com/CoralineAda/status/464763097639436288

Also known as "Reverend Dr. Corey Bantik" in another time of life. Here an old site: http://archive.li/NsPmk

Everybody has the right of opinion. My opinion is that this person is highly unstable and absolutely not somebody I like to deal with. Take out of this what you want, but I think this is important. I wonder why no news source is talking about that.

Quoting: Doc AngeloEverybody has the right of opinion. My opinion is that this person is highly unstable and absolutely not somebody I like to deal with. Take out of this what you want, but I think this is important. I wonder why no news source is talking about that.

Neither your opinion or the subject it pertains to are relevant to the topic. Don't you realise you're going on a witch hunt even after you actually use the word? I'm glad if news sources don't stoop to your level.

Quoting: GuestI've read the CoC, not sure what all the fuss is about. There is nothing in it you don't already abide by at work.

Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

I've worked in numerous professional fields before GOL. A lot of them had way stricter rules than this, one job I had didn't even let us have a single personal item on us at all times.

I would prefer if people didn't start throwing claims around about people's mental state, this is not the kind of community I want GOL to be. Think before you post.

Quoting: Doc Angelo

Quoting: tuubiGamingOnLinux didn't have rules regarding personal attacks and behaviour towards minorities either, but now it does. Do you think that was unnecessary as well? Just ask Liam how much easier it is to keep things under control when you have a written document to refer to.

Of course is it just the same kind of unnecessary here. There's no difference. Please provide examples where the needed control really couldn't have been exercised with the former rules.

Just to touch on this, there's a reason that rule exists because of the attitudes of some people here. A particular person was practically chased off GOL due to their gender after being signed up for all of an hour. Instantly when they said hi and introduced themselves, two people came alone and made some really offhanded comments about it which really annoyed me and upset this person enough to instantly leave our community and remove their account.

Rules exist because people seem to be unable to follow some kind of common decency and common sense when dealing with others.

Quoting: Doc Angelo

Quoting: HamishExactly. Most of what is being asked for here is just the bare standard of professional behaviour.

"Professional" behavior is different for everyone. It's different for people from the US, from Europe, I heard some interesting examples from Belgium and also Finland. Apart from that, everybody has a different view on that. I know people who have a completely different take on this than I have. I've heard people uttering something like "Never let other people know that you don't know what you're doing" as being professional. And that was from a person with a kind of medical background.

It's not a useful expression. At least not in such a diverse and big community. There is no "common ground" for "being professional".

You do realize all your argument does is help show why a Code of Conduct may in fact be necessary, right?

If people really are coming to the project with such varied expectations over what is considered appropriate behaviour, having it formally spelled out so that everyone is on the same page would seem to be essential in making sure the project can keep operating smoothly.

Think of it as being the POSIX or Linux Standard Base of behaviour.

Quoting: tuubiNeither your opinion or the subject it pertains to are relevant to the topic. Don't you realise you're going on a witch hunt even after you actually use the word? I'm glad if news sources don't stoop to your level.

Click on the link and listen or read the interview. "Witch" is the word she uses to refer to herself. It's in the description of her Twitter account and she touches upon this in the interview. I'm not making this up.

Quoting: liamdaweThink before you post.

That is generally a very good idea for everyone. Universally speaking.

Quoting: liamdaweJust to touch on this, there's a reason that rule exists because of the attitudes of some people here. A particular person was practically chased off GOL due to their gender after being signed up for all of an hour. Instantly when they said hi and introduced themselves, two people came alone and made some really offhanded comments about it which really annoyed me and upset this person enough to instantly leave our community and remove their account.

Rules exist because people seem to be unable to follow some kind of common decency and common sense when dealing with others.

Such people are definitely not needed in any community. Bugging someone because of his gender is just stupid and unnecessary. There's no reason for that. That's hateful.

As I said before: "Don't discriminate" is a good rule. There is no need for making specific rules because any kind of discrimination kept under that umbrella. I just think that general rules are a good idea. I'm sure that the former rules already would have accounted for such a case. Or maybe the rules were too lax before. To be honest, I don't remember reading rules, but maybe I just clicked them away while registering here. Is there a link to the rules?

Edit: Uh... never mind. :D I just found the link just a few millimeters under this very post.

Quoting: GuestBut look at the Opal project case: They were attacked by the aforementioned activists who tried to coerce them in firing a developer because she had said something they didn't like. It failed but they succeeded in making the Opal people to adopt their infamous CoC.

Then, the famous CoC was "improved" in order to get at said developer. And it failed again and the Opal people simply got rid of the CoC and established rules of their own.

Now, i read comments suggesting Google and Facebook are behind this and that hell will break loose but i have no reliable information about that so i do not know. Wait and see. :)

I find it a bit repulsive that said activists can put "Linux" on their headcount webpage but right now i do not see much more.

A link would be usefull here;

https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

I mean a lot of people here seems to naively think that the coc will not be abused to target people over their personal non-project related views.

An here it's nicely documented - people who have no affiliation with the project come to attack a contributor over comments on that persons twitter feed. As far as I know his views were never expressed in a project content, I was unaware of this particular case but it's by no means unique nor is it confined to coding/opensource.

In case you were wondering the one filing the bug to have the contributor removed is the same spear heading the coc change.

And just to be clear; if this person had made such remarks in a project context (code/docs/issues/inter-project communications/on behalf of the project) I fully support them being chastised and removed if they are unwilling to accept that there needs to be separation between "professional" and personal. I don't believe they should be removed outright (unless unwilling to keep that separation) - you don't achieve change by isolating those who do not agree with you.