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Cyberpunk 2077 will be DirectX12 only
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Ehvis 5 Jul

Quoting: ShmerlRay tracing could be implemented in Vulkan without extensions already. They just provide convenience.

3D rendering can also be implemented on your CPU. That doesn't mean it's efficient.

Shmerl 5 Jul

Without hardware support, it's as efficient as your general purpose compute units allow. So what exactly wasn't possible to do in Vulkan before?

Last edited by Shmerl on 5 July 2020 at 8:20 am UTC

Ehvis 5 Jul

Quoting: ShmerlWithout hardware support, it's as efficient as your general purpose compute units allow. So what exactly wasn't possible to do in Vulkan before?

It was possible. NVIDIA made OptiX to do it. But it needs hardware support for realtime graphics. If you want it actually be used by game developers, it needs a standardized cross-vendor API. This makes VK_KHR_ray_tracing not just "a convenience", it makes it essential.

Shmerl 5 Jul

Quoting: EhvisIt was possible. NVIDIA made OptiX to do it. But it needs hardware support for realtime graphics. If you want it actually be used by game developers, it needs a standardized cross-vendor API. This makes VK_KHR_ray_tracing not just "a convenience", it makes it essential.

That's exactly the point. Without dedicated hardware, it was all up to general GPU compute units. So extension will need to fall back to them anyway. And a year ago nothing had that dedicated hardware either way.

Therefore there was no benefit in using DXR vs using Vulkan. It was just a bait by both Nvidia and MS who pushed that junk probably colluding with each other.

Last edited by Shmerl on 5 July 2020 at 8:35 am UTC

Ehvis 5 Jul

Quoting: ShmerlTherefore there was no benefit in using DXR vs using Vulkan. It was just a bait by both Nvidia and MS who pushed that junk probably colluding with each other.

Well, we might not like it, but DXR provides the exact same thing as VK_KHR_ray_tracing does. It might be closed, but it is functionally the same. The REDEngine is clearly built around DX11, so switching to DX12 with optional DXR meant the least work. A clear benefit and also a prime example of Vendor lock-in right there.

Nvidia is being normal here. They create new technology and try to push it in order to keep their lead. Same as any company would do. AMD on the other hand create a shiny demonstration video that clearly demonstrated they understood the importance of realtime ray tracing, but did nothing with it. They need to catch up like they did with their CPUs. Consumers need Nvidia to have a full blown competitor, not a company that's several years behind.

Shmerl 5 Jul

Nvidia aren't being normal, if they provide DX support for their features and not Vulkan (you said DXR was a year ahead?). Sounds like MS are paying them to do push lock-in first. That's not normal, it's called collusion.

Last edited by Shmerl on 5 July 2020 at 9:25 am UTC

raneon 5 Jul

I've removed it from my wishlist on Steam. Without Vulkan support I will not get this game. DX12 is a bad move.

mirv 5 Jul

Just to put this into the conversation because it seems appropriate:
Vulkan raytracing isn't entirely in core yet (I think), but very close. It's either way very new to Vulkan - which means when raytracing was being added to cyberpunk, it wouldn't have been available with Vulkan. They weren't going to write their own custom compute version.

Lock-in from MS or not, they were there with something that could be used first, and that matters. Nvidia had raytracing extensions for Vulkan for a while, but they weren't anywhere near considered stable.

mylka 5 Jul

Quoting: raneonI've removed it from my wishlist on Steam. Without Vulkan support I will not get this game. DX12 is a bad move.

why? VKD3D works pretty good.

Shmerl 5 Jul

Quoting: mirvThey weren't going to write their own custom compute version.

Yet they somehow are OK with compute fallback for those who don't have dedicated hardware? If they are OK with that, they could write their own too, since back then there was no dedicated hardware anyway.

Quoting: mirvLock-in from MS or not, they were there with something that could be used first, and that matters. Nvidia had raytracing extensions for Vulkan for a while, but they weren't anywhere near considered stable.

So how is that their DXR was stable before their Vulkan extensions? That's dirty corpo in action to me with cozy money from MS flowing into Nvidia's pockets.

Last edited by Shmerl on 5 July 2020 at 2:50 pm UTC

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