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Linux Mint and Ubuntu share a lot in common. However for new users (who come from Windows) there are two big Pros for Ubuntu and one big Con. First, I'll start with the Pros:
1) Ubuntu is the officially supported distro
If a software developer decides to support Linux, usually all of their testing will be done on Ubuntu
2) There are much more tutorials written for Ubuntu, compared to Linux Mint:
When a new user runs into a problem, first thing he will usually do is google the solution. He is guarantied to find way more results when looking for: How to do XY on Ubuntu, than when looking for: How to do XY on Linux Mint.
So far it looks like Ubuntu is the clear winner here. Now for the Con:
GNOME
Please dear GNOME users and lovers, don't start sharpen your pitchfork yet. Yes yes, I know, you love your GNOME and can't see how anyone could ever prefer something like Cinnamon instead. And you know what, I hated GNOME at first, but after using it for a year, I now quite like it too. However, try to look at this from perspective of a user, who is coming from Windows. GNOME is very different from Windows DE and Ubuntufied GNOME even more so. Not to mention, GNOME is opinionated: You either do things the GNOME way, or no way. Even for some basic behavior, if the user doesn't like how GNOME does it, chances are, he will not find it in Settings, but will need to find and install an extension.
So for a new user (from Windows) that makes it: An unfamiliar environment, which you can't easily change to a more familiar one. And because we know how important familiarity with something is for most users, chances are, this plus the fact that it can't be easily changed will lead to frustration and eventually them coming back to Windows.
This is especially true, when it comes to "non-tech" users. I am a Linux enthusiast, so I often tell people about Linux and how great it is. And I already had 4 unrelated non-tech users tell me this:
- "Yeah, I tried Linux, I didn't like it"
- "What do you mean, tried Linux? Which distro?"
- "Linux"
- "Me explaining about Linux and distros"
- "Yeah, I just didn't like it, I'll stick with Windows"
What you have to realize is, that most "non-tech" users don't know what distros are and have no idea that one OS can (from their perspective) look and behave completely differently depending on the DE. That's why it makes way more sense for them to start on Cinnamon, which is made exactly for the purpose of Windows users being familiar with it, when compared to starting with GNOME.
So let's sum it up. On one hand, you have a big Con for Ubuntu which is unfamiliarity of new users with GNOME. On the other hand, you have better support and more tutorials for Ubuntu. However.. Since Linux Mint itself is based on Ubuntu, it is very unlikely that anything a new user would want to do will work on Ubuntu and not work on Mint. As for tutorials, chances are, that a new user will search for "How to do XY on Linux" and not "How to do XY on Ubuntu/Mint anyway, so it doesn't matter that much. I would say those are quite small cons against throwing a new user to a completely unfamiliar, opinionated environment like GNOME.
What are your thoughts about this? Do you disagree with me? If so, I would love to hear your opinion, as I think it is civilized discussions on controversial topics like this, which moves us forward. I promise I will try my best to be open-minded and understand your POV to the best of my abilities.
So no, I don't think you can recommend Mint when it is just another DE that wants to do things differently and breaks things while doing that. Unfortunately, this seems to apply to everything except GNOME. Even KDE (which I checked longer ago though) decided that it knew better with kwin and subsequently broke variable refresh support. I honestly don't understand why there are so many windows managers / compositors when only one seems to function correctly.
Btw, according to this post, it should work on KDE: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux4noobs/comments/kcavlj/nvidia_gsync_list_of_compatible_window_managers/
If that's true, then I'll consider recommending Kubuntu/KDE Neon instead of Mint, as I think KDE is still better DE for new users than GNOME, for the reasons stated in the OP.
I really need to take some time to check kde again and see if all issues have been fixed now.
I personally switched the laptop that was using Cinnamon to KDE as soon as I'd tried KDE 5 on my desktop (I'd tried KDE in the KDE 4 era and didn't really like it).
Even if you want to use Cinnamon or MATE, I'm not sure that Mint brings much over using the Cinnamon or MATE flavours of Ubuntu.
Essentially, one would need to create a complete visual and functional identical clone of Windows to appease these people, which for obvious reasons is infeasible. I have since adopted a mindset of letting the normies lie in the beds they have made for themselves. In order to use linux, or BSD or whatever else necessitates *some* amount of learning. I have no interest in helping people who are unwilling to help themselves.
But I don't think that is a compelling enough reason to choose Mint in particular, or even to move outside of the Ubuntu flavors.
I remember when I first tried Linux many years ago.
The recommendations then were the same as today:
1. Use Ubuntu.
2. Use a "stable" distro.
For me the truth could not be further away from what the actual best system choice is:
1. Use rolling-release distros as these will be the only ones really up-to-date.
2. Use the major Desktop Environments (KDE or Gnome), because the small ones can work too, but will have lots of annoying small problems.
Also: Arch is not complicated and will not crash all the time, in contrast to what people will tell you :wink:.
But I also usually will set it up for new users and show them how to do updates. Then let them have at it. Much like Windows, the initial install probably just shouldn't be done by average users.
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Gnome's simplified interface might be what he always wanted but never found on Windows.
Tough question, what distro to recommend, and I don't think there's a perfect answer. Distro hopping a list of distros for a while might be necessary.
But I'd say is better to be a mainstream one and also with a widely used DE, and Ubuntu still fits on that list.
I would add that there are in fact DEs or themes whose main goal and purpose is to mimic the UI of various Windows editions, so if that’s what the user needs to be comfortable with their computer, let them have it.
The closest thing we have right now is Arch Linux Manjaro. Steam OS 3.0 is going to be based on Arch. Valve is recommending people do their testing on Manjaro.
With that said, when Steam Deck finally appears in the hands of the masses, you'll begin to see Linux numbers rise, particularly Arch Linux numbers.
When that happens, the tutorials will happen. The internet will be inundated with questions and answers from Windows users just trying to get their Steam games working on Linux, and they might have questions regarding installing various other desktop software in Manjaro.
And hopefully, we will establish Arch Linux as basically the next big thing side by side Ubuntu in terms of userbase. My guess is, eventually Arch Linux will dominate.
Does that mean I think Arch Linux is the best? How should I know? I'm just a Windows user. But I can tell you from my experience, that the moment I had to use YAY in a terminal, I became **very** confused, and I'm still confused even til this day. YAY produces lots of errors and confusion for me. I don't like it, and I think a lot of Windows users will also not like it.
I think recommending Arch Linux is probably the best decision since it stands the best chance of dethroning Ubuntu, and that's just based on logic, not my personal opinion whether or not I think Arch Linux is good. I actually rather dislike Linux on the whole, but I'm pretty open minded and will learn it if that's the direction things seem to be going, which it does.
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Plenty of new users (and especially tech-inclined tweakers) will be delighted by what Arch Linux has to offer, is one of the purest Linux experience in that sense.
But recommending vanilla Arch Linux en-masse to new users is a dangerous proposition. Arch based, is a different story though, and that's probably what you meant.
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:smile:
Last edited by mrdeathjr on 22 Nov 2021 at 9:09 pm UTC
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At this point, they were interested in moving, maybe to a different OS, but at least something up to date and working. I suggested to them that I would set up a Linux machine for them, and they could try it out and see how they got on with it. As a Xmas present, I handed over the Linux PC, and gave them a little training on how to navigate the desktop. I also assisted them with things like moving their files, arranging their photo collection and music collection. Also, a backup solution was sorted out by me.
As computer users, they are amongst the worst you could imagine. They struggle to follow the most basic instructions. I still haven't managed to successfully train them how to use a file manager properly.
However, they can get around the DE fine - They can find their files and open them. They can launch programs, browse the internet, launch the backup software, run the software update, read their emails, work on documents and spreadsheets, scan paper and print things out.
They are using Debian Stable with Gnome 3.3 desktop environment, and they are not struggling with it. They are practically the least-capable computer users you could imagine.
They use:
LibreOffice, BackInTime, Firefox (with uBlock Origin), Thunderbird, Gnome's Software Manager, Gnome's Nautilus file manager, VLC player, EOG (Eye of Gnome) image viewer, Rhythmbox, MPV player, Shotwell photo manager, Simple Scan.
Meanwhile, I use Debian 11 Bullseye and (currently) Gnome 3.33, with proprietary Nvidia drivers, and thanks to Steam and Proton(WINE) tech - I can play most games in my 2000+ collection. (The anti-cheat PVP ones are the non-working titles - at the moment.)
If I want more "up to date" software, then I just need to switch Debian Stable to Debian Unstable (or Experimental) or use backports. Or I could use Snaps or AppImages or compile from source, for bleeding edge. I like having a stable, reliable system, that has a competent team of testers ensuring that the system doesn't break. Also, I like Debian's stance on FOSS.
EDIT: One thing to note, you can install a plethora of Desktop Environments on Debian - Gnome, KDE Plasma, LXDE, Cinnamon, MATE, LXQt, XFCE, etc. If you dislike Gnome, plenty of others to choose from.
Last edited by g000h on 23 Nov 2021 at 12:58 pm UTC
But I can understand the desire for some familiarity. I moved away from Ubuntu when they introduced Unity and to Mint.
I respect Ubuntu. Ubuntu had done more for the Linux desktop/gaming than anyone else, but that doesn't mean it'll always be the best for new users.
If we're looking for something with similar patterns to windows, I can't think of a DE that doesn't have some options to be familiar (start menu, taskbar, system tray). We've even adopted the names!
----
I end by saying I don't think this actually solves the problem of user not being familiar with Linux. We're mostly gamers here, how do you learn a new game?
What Linux needs more than anything is a proper tutorial. Built into the system on first run. Opt-out.
YouTube/online Tutorials... Nope. 1. People looking for answers are trusting and someone googling YouTube will trust that solution and use it without context, essentially blind, possibly breaking the system. 2. The quality and trustworthiness are dubious. How many times have you found an answer online where the solution requires sudo without a full explanation of how potentially dangerous that is?
I'm not talking about the first run splash screen. Something interactive that takes you through the DE, AND it's programs, including the CLI (when they get to it)
A proper thing built-in to the UI would solve a lot of problems. Including unfamiliarity regardless of the environment.
-----
The problem is that it's not a glory project, it's very hard to implement, and since it has little use beyond me users, most of us likely think it's beneath us.
I actually never said that.
I said that there is a lot of missinformation that is repeated over and over again (mostly by people who never even used Arch).
New users could probably use Manjaro, Fedora and some others instead.
---
Regarding "stable" distros:
I hear it over and again how people praise all the "stable" distros; I only had problems with them (missing functionality and compatibility in software etc.) (I used mostly Debian for years) and in the beginning I did not realize that all of these problems occur because of super outdated packages.
To say it clearly I am not saying that no one should use "stable" distros, but everyone should be more honest about it.
Rolling-release distros are not bad at all and you should not always discourage every new user from using those.
Instead you should also be honest about the major downsides of "stable" distros:
super outdated software, resulting in missing functionality, compatibility issues (I am talking about third-party software and third-party data here), potencial security problems, bugs etc.
Regarding Arch (and other rolling-release distros):
They are not unstable and also not complicated, for the following reasons:
1. A distro that provides official upstream releases of software (like rolling-release distros do) is not unstable, that is simply missinformation, some might even say it is a lie.
2. Configuration etc. can as easy as on "stable" distros, it is all a matter of whether the distro maintainers want that or not.
2.a) This brings us to the specific topic of Arch; the maintainers there don't want it easy (it's a pity, but its their choice). Still using Arch is much easier than I initially thought (because of all the bad comments about it):
All you need to do is the following:
- use a third-party installer, because setting it up the usual way is not so nice
- use pamac (or some other third-party package manager), because pacman does not support AUR and has no GUI
- some packages (very few in fact) need manual configuration (the wiki helps you with that)
- services need to be activated by hand (also wiki)
- Inform about AUR (most packages will work out of the box, but for security reasons users should of course know a bit about building and configuration of software)
- For the very rare case of startup issues:
- Use multiple kernels
- learn how to downgrade packages via console (not as complicated as it sounds)
All in all, the way Arch works is of course not newbie friendly (but other rolling-release distros are and can be), but still it is much easier than people tell you.
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:smile: