Well... add another one to the list that runs much, much better through Proton than natively: The Witcher 2 Assassin of Kings

Moreover, it's really the first time I've seen this game with perfect performance (it wasn't when I played it on Windows years ago)

For continuity (it was mentioned here and I did get around to playing it again... great to see it)

Quoting: GroganWell... add another one to the list that runs much, much better through Proton than natively: The Witcher 2 Assassin of Kings

That is a terrible example.

Virtual Programming uses eON when they publish games for Linux. That is a problem with the technology they used that is similar to Wine/Proton.

We have to accept that many games for Linux won't have the same features as versions for Windows. Linux is just a different platform. You can see these problems even with the games for consoles.

Many of us forgot when we ran some of the native games for the first time on Linux. How fun it was playing these commercial games on this unpopular open-source system.

I'm one of those users that enjoy playing indie games for a few bucks or sometimes something much more popular.

It's terrible when a company like Aspyr stops porting games to Linux. On the other hand, it's more painful when I see some specific companies that drop the technical support for Linux. Especially, when they were creating games for Linux before Steam like Frozenbyte, Frictional games, etc.

InterAction studios was porting, and updating games for Linux for 12 years (2009-2021). They did everything correctly. They invested in Linux and were ignored by the Linux community when they had to drop support for their games. However, you can still buy these games. That is a better example than PAYDAY 2.

LGP is closed, and Runesoft probably doesn't give us a third chance. Alternative games still exist, but I don't know if they are working on something.

We have probably thousands of companies that port games to Linux. That is the fact that we shouldn't ignore.

Many of them decided to port some games to Linux, and I think we should worry about only when they stop selling them. The lack of technical support is just a minor inconvenience. You can use the old version of the operating system or try to troubleshoot it.

Last edited by gbudny on 25 Jun 2023 at 6:48 pm UTC

Wow, have been long time not see a big fight over a decision since distro wars and distro hopping.
i was zealot once, but then i realise that we have to see truth around us. There is monopoly in every aspect of computer science and software enginering. As much as Windows domination continues we wont get proper Linux based ecosystem for goodness of human beings for free as in speech and as in beer.
for gaming industry closed source apps libs, and fear of income salary etc. many people was afraid of Linux and open Source. and human behaviors dont change easily until they see profit in it. for e.g. Servers main dns frameworks runs on linux nowadays. But still monopoly of gaming industry made devs slaves of microsoft+directX, even with my country we have educations for dx coding for windows, but these changing slowly with android, vulkan api and steamdeck, But mean while wine + wine forks (proton etc.) are a step for better future with native linux games until we got larger userbase and Legaly Supporting companies etc. Successfull distros are have these. Cannonical, RedHat, Gelecek, Mandrake soft etc....
and remember if we can play games under linux now thats because work of transgaming. and mostly "wine"

Android every month is getting an even bigger threat to Linux x86-64. Linux x86-64 is part of the PC market that is getting weaker. We can see that individuals have many devices with Android: smartphones, tablets, and laptops. I can't say that most people have few computers with x86-64.

In this case, companies more frequently prefer to abandon games for Windows/Linux/Mac. In this case, they focus on selling games for Android and porting them to iOS. It's a more profitable market for many of them.

More interestingly, more games for Android than for Linux x86-64 make Proton useless in these situations.

Linux isn't a replacement for Windows.

Transgaming did an incredible job with Cider for Mac. I can't say it about Cedega/WineX for Linux, which was a failure.

Wine/Proton creates unrealistic expectations among Linux users. It's easy for some companies to increase this need for a better version of Wine. Unfortunately, it's impossible to fulfill these dreams and expectations.

Proton/Wine will never be better than Windows because it's a technology developed and controlled by Microsoft. Of course, it could be possible to fulfill these expectations when Microsoft starts developing its version of Wine. I think it's unlikely to happen soon.

I can't say it's a perfect system. Sometimes, I think that Linux is as horrible system like Windows. On the other hand, I have many games for Linux that I didn't buy for Windows or download only versions for Linux. Now, I can't even download some of them or buy them for Windows.

Does it mean that Linux is a better choice for me than Windows?

Sometimes, I don't have a choice, and it was a matter of preference among systems.

I don't see the answer to this question in this discussion.

Do you see a value and sense in using Linux as the tool to run some native games for Linux?

Windows is a unique platform for running games for Windows. We will get the "better version" with a unique name in the next few years.

Last edited by gbudny on 25 Jun 2023 at 2:42 pm UTC

Quoting: gbudnyThat is a terrible example.

No, it's apt because there are a lot of those eON monstrosities.

Bioshock Infinite, too.

Every stinking one of those runs like utter shit these days, if they work at all.

The point is, I'd rather have a game working well through Proton.

Last edited by Grogan on 25 Jun 2023 at 4:31 pm UTC

Quoting: gbudnyThe lack of technical support is just a minor inconvenience. You can use the old version of the operating system or try to troubleshoot it.

Tech support schmeck support... I've never had much luck with that. Has anybody ever tried "tech support" for a software product? You'll be better off asking other users in forums and such. Maybe somebody knows a solution, instead of those canned idiots whose real job seems to be getting you to go away.

Maintenance is important, but nobody guarantees that it works, not even $3000 productivity software. If it runs afoul of changing APIs later, they'll have a paid upgrade that fixes you up.

The difference is that they are just coming right out and telling you to your face that they can't support every configuration. With games now it's not a big risk (easy to refund).

Quoting: gbudnyLook at ArcaOS, Haiku, AmigaOS/ MorphOS, and the current availability of commercial games for these operating systems. The previous generation of users had their chance and threw it away. They can only dream about games from Steam, GOG, HIB, etc.

I'm quite surprised at how many games get ported over for MorphOS / AmigaOS4. Though generally they are the exact same ones that get native Linux support, and generally done through opensource engines.

I'll start this by saying I do use Proton where applicable.

But I'll add a caveat to how annoying it is.

Let's look at games like Skyrim. They work wonderfully in Proton. But there is no mod management, and that game definitely is enhanced by mods.

Let's poke at the Forgotten Realms: The Archives (vol 1-3). On Steam it does not list Linux support. GOG has the Linux installers. But most people these days would love to use the Goldbox Companion, which is a windows binary. Just reading this post shows how annoying the situation can be; https://forum-ubuntuusers-de.translate.goog/topic/goldbox-rpgs-gold-box-companion/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

I can think of many other cases where using Proton, due to third party utilities to make the game better / more modern just gets in the way. Native in these cases would be much better. (I haven't tried it yet, but can you even get real MIDI working through DosBOX running through Wine?)

Quoting: Grogan

Quoting: gbudnyThe lack of technical support is just a minor inconvenience. You can use the old version of the operating system or try to troubleshoot it.

Tech support schmeck support... I've never had much luck with that. Has anybody ever tried "tech support" for a software product? You'll be better off asking other users in forums and such. Maybe somebody knows a solution, instead of those canned idiots whose real job seems to be getting you to go away.

Maintenance is important, but nobody guarantees that it works, not even $3000 productivity software. If it runs afoul of changing APIs later, they'll have a paid upgrade that fixes you up.

The difference is that they are just coming right out and telling you to your face that they can't support every configuration. With games now it's not a big risk (easy to refund).

I asked Ubisoft tech support about something years ago. Was actually shocked they fixed my issue.

Games that used eON are a fine example, as are Feral ports. The reality is: every game uses some form of abstraction or translation to get their cross-platform support. What level will people go to before they accept it? Proton runs games you've purchased, on your machine, at a level often very comparable to Windows regardless of how the developer cares for Linux. It should be accepted not frowned upon, but I feel that element of the community will likely never go away.

Quoting: Perkeleen_VittupääTo many concerned, Wine/Proton actually IS native. Well yes; we're not talking about an emulator, it's an open source reimplementation of what makes Windows programs run.

If a certain game developer aims for Proton rather than for Windows, that's fine by also many Linux standards, and it can be said that boy do they stretch nowadays. It's one of Linux' feats: it can be flexible! Windows? Not so much...

Here's another thing: you'll hear Tux giggle all the way from its igloo on top of the world if Windows makes an update that breaks that game, while it still works on Wine.

What i personally think/want? ALL those games just to work on Linux "clicking play"! No matter through what. That's what a common user cares about too. For things to work. That's it. Things break on Windows side all the time too, btw. Computing is still far from humane, perfect or whatnot in general...

When Linux usage keeps rising and reaches certain levels, THEN the native ports prolly come back in a new major way.

It's not native in the same way as me using Google Translate to read German is me reading German natively. :) It's a translation layer to turn Win32/Win64 API calls into Linux/Elf calls. Well unless you're running it on an non-x86 CPU, then it IS an emulator :P

Quoting: Liam DaweWhat level will people go to before they accept it?

When game companies say "play our games on Linux, using Proton. We support that and will ensure our updates don't break things."

I'm not going to shell out £60 of my own money on a product that a) isn't supported by the developer, and b) may not work tomorrow (if it even works today).

Right and I buy plenty with big discounts. I buy games as a gamer interested in the game specifically, not just or only because it “supports” Linux with a special native build that most devs say over and over hasn’t really been worth it.

Right, and I buy games because they support the OS I use and I decide where I spend my money.

Just for the record, I have plenty to play. :)

Quoting: Liam DaweRight and I buy plenty with big discounts. I buy games as a gamer interested in the game specifically, not just or only because it “supports” Linux with a special native build that most devs say over and over hasn’t really been worth it.

I suppose it comes down to economics. If you don't buy games that don't support the platform, and everyone did it, they could potentially lose what? 500k of profit, maybe? Let's look at Steam Deck numbers (granted if people only bought native games on there, and that was the only library that showed up, how many would actually be buying Steam Decks?) It's already over a million sales of the Steam Deck. Sure there is a chicken/egg problem with that, as no one would have bought it without Proton. Lack of Proton (hence any game compatibility) is likely why the Steam Machines failed (that and the various build and price points). But that's the thing though... if developers actually coded multi-platform from the beginning, instead of doing special native builds in a separate tree... then it's totally worth it. Paying porting houses, and continually having to send patches to them is less likely to be worth it.

The numbers are there; people still release all the ports for the switch, and that's an entirely different architecture. Wonder how many sales independent games get on the Switch?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm very much more likely to buy a game that directly supports Linux rather than one that does not. Though it isn't the most important thing (like I've stopped buying Early Access games, been burned too many times.)

Quoting: slaapliedjeI asked Ubisoft tech support about something years ago. Was actually shocked they fixed my issue.

I'm glad you had better luck, but I contacted them once over Assassin's Creed Odyssey asking for a non-existent product key. The Ubisoft client was working, I could see my other Steam linked games in there, but the new one just would not "activate".

Ubersoftturd basically said it wasn't their problem, they don't issue product keys for Steam versions. (I didn't even mention the word Linux, by the way).

Therefore, I decided it wasn't going to be MY problem, so I just sent it back on Steam. It's not valve's problem either, it's Ubisoft's activation (I wouldn't even bother Valve with that).

P.S. If you haven't noticed, I am not fond of Ubisoft :-)

Last edited by Grogan on 26 Jun 2023 at 12:36 am UTC

Quoting: Liam Dawenot just or only because it “supports” Linux with a special native build that most devs say over and over hasn’t really been worth it.

I'm not sure if I understand in the right way.

Do you start to have doubts about porting games to Linux x86-64?

Do you think that Linux with Wine/Proton should be another OS/2?

I know that OS/2 lost the competition when games and applications specifically designed for this system were abandoned by companies.

These types of comments about low sales are something that Linux users don't like to hear. In this case, you have some impact on which companies and games you write articles about it.

On the other hand, publishing many games for Windows and Android could generate sales lower than expected by the company. In many cases, companies could be closed down if they invested too much money in a specific game.
In my view, we worry too much about similar issues that always existed on different platforms.

Quoting: GroganUbersoftturd basically said it wasn't their problem, they don't issue product keys for Steam versions. (I didn't even mention the word Linux, by the way).

P.S. If you haven't noticed, I am not fond of Ubisoft :-)

It's weird seeing the Ubisoft logo on boxes with CDs of Theocracy and Yohoho! Puzzle Pirates. They allowed two companies to publish the Linux versions on CDs when it was such an unpopular system.

Last edited by gbudny on 26 Jun 2023 at 1:45 am UTC

Quoting: Liam DaweGames that used eON are a fine example, as are Feral ports. The reality is: every game uses some form of abstraction or translation to get their cross-platform support. What level will people go to before they accept it? Proton runs games you've purchased, on your machine, at a level often very comparable to Windows regardless of how the developer cares for Linux. It should be accepted not frowned upon, but I feel that element of the community will likely never go away.

Speaking of levels, it depends on what level the translation is used at. I'd be pretty confident that even from-scratch ports still use a translator at the source level for the DirectX to OpenGL/Vulkan.

If "wrappers" are going to be used, well, I think Wine and the API translation technologies (and/or Proton, collectively) do it a lot better, hands down. All the devs/publishers have to do is stick to sane uses of established APIs. Do that, give it a nod of acceptance (while perhaps not assuming obligation for support, I'd accept that as I do now) and that's all we should need. We're not quite there yet, but closer, and the Steam Deck strategy can get some praise for that.

Feral did a good job on their ports by personal observations. I have to admit I bought games I wouldn't otherwise have been keen on, simply because I wanted to see quality usage of our technologies in action and to see them get a sale. Things like the DiRT games, and the Tomb Raider games for example. They were very nice, and I hope that when I get back to them, they can still be made to run (otherwise Proton... so unlikely to get completely burned)

All of those eON wrapped games were poor, but some were worse than others. (Witcher 2 wasn't the worst, at least not by the time I tried it on Linux). They were usually still playable if willing to sacrifice pride and think beyond "just look at this garbage! argh". It was good to have at least something for entertainment without having to boot to Windows, in those days.

Quoting: WorMzyRight, and I buy games because they support the OS I use and I decide where I spend my money.

Just for the record, I have plenty to play. :)

I'm not specifically arguing against doing that though. More interested on why it's so important? Being native doesn't actually mean you're going to see good support. We've seen plenty of native games vanish, plenty of them break, release without a single bit of testing etc. There's really absolutely no guarantee that being native means anything.

My whole point is just to focus on the games you want, regardless of how they're run. We're here to game right?

Last edited by GamingOnLinux Bot on 26 Jun 2023 at 9:02 am UTC

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: WorMzyRight, and I buy games because they support the OS I use and I decide where I spend my money.

Just for the record, I have plenty to play. :)

I'm not specifically arguing against doing that though. More interested on why it's so important? Being native doesn't actually mean you're going to see good support. We've seen plenty of native games vanish, plenty of them break, release without a single bit of testing etc. There's really absolutely no guarantee that being native means anything.

My whole point is just to focus on the games you want, regardless of how they're run. We're here to game right?

I think the encouragement for native should still be the thing; if only to make a game's code more stable / diverse. But this means multiplatform from the start, instead of doing 'ports.' Publishers not utilizing the 'export to Linux/Mac' feature of Unreal Engine and Unity is kind of crap for anyone who wants to game on such a platform.

Hilariously, Apple again is copying rather than innovating, and also going to integrate wine into macOS. It'd be interesting if Proton could ever get out from under being in Steam and just integrated directly in distributions (I know there are ways to use it outside of Steam, but some sort of invisible thing like OS/2 with DOS applications.)

Quoting: gbudnyDo you think that Linux with Wine/Proton should be another OS/2?

I know that OS/2 lost the competition when games and applications specifically designed for this system were abandoned by companies.

Ha, I said the other day that if ArcaOS actually had a current port of Wine for it, it would be a very awesome alternative for Retro gaming machines! I'd much rather run that than have to deal with Win98 and the service packs that random people online have built.