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First I am really sad how loudest parts of Linux online community is not that different - and thus childish, petish, vile and toxic - from overall online geek community. Yeah, I know, this happens in almost all online communities. Still I hold open source communities at higher standard despite some of them failing regularly to achieve that.

Thus despite being complete opposite to crowd described here I am really sorry and while I don't feel responsible for their behaviour, I fully understand developer reaction.

I am still sticking with Linux and thanks to all devs and porters who have given me awesome entertainment on Linux platform for last two years.

As for toxicity being major factor of not porting W3 to Linux I doubt that - it seems there were major shifts within company itself due of multiple factors. However it still might have tipped a balance.

As for those justifying any hate speech towards developers or any other person really - grow up. Criticism, even loud one - sure. Hate speech, threats - this is where you lose every reason why. Because there are no any.

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Quoting: Nyamiou

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: NyamiouThe idea that a company would judge an entire community over the reaction of a few individuals no matter how loud they can be is completely unacceptable, if CDRP are really like then they got the hate they deserved.

And "they got the hate they deserved" is the problem. People like YOU are exactly the problem.

People like me? WTF? seriously. Also thx for quoting out of context, that's nice.

Seriously, you are a troll trying to turn people of the Linux community against each others. I don't know why you are doing that and I don't understand why people listen to you, but what I know is that they probably shouldn't.

Give me one good reasons you are telling that stuff, even if it were to be the truth, given the harm it does to the community?

You need to stop this. Really, I'm reading with disbelief. I don't know what you think you're doing, if you think you're some kind of cowboy riding to the rescue with your bizarre conspiracy theory about fake identity, but you need to realize that you are in fact mistaken, which means you have been making highly unpleasant false accusations to a developer of a Linux game port.
It seems as if you may have realized that you were mistaken, but the appropriate reaction to finding that out is not to grudgingly give a few centimeters of ground and continue attacking, it is to swallow your pride, climb down and apologize. It is not too late.

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To jaycee:

I have some questions. In the thread on reddit that points to this article you made an interesting comment:

The first guy says:

QuoteThis is the same company whose employee on twitter insulted Linux users and then set his twitter profile to private.

Then you said:

QuoteBlame me, not the company. It was my private Twitter, and my own opinion, not the company one.

Then you quote:

QuoteAlso the same company that blamed Linux kernel devs claiming they had a grudge against proprietary software when in fact they had written code that was one half of an exploit that had been reported and fixed in the kernel.

Then you said:

QuoteAgain, me, not VP. I retracted the comment. Linus Torvalds himself later came along and said "We should not have broken userspace behaviour".

The following may sound aggressive but what i want to say is, in this comments you seem to:
1.- Ask people to not blame VP for your own words.
2.- For people to consider that you accepted and corrected a mistake.

You ask people to not blame the whole VP, a company where you was an employee and where it would make a lot more of sense to take the word of one of the key employees as the word of the company.
-¿Then do you consider valid to ask people to take your words when you're an employee as only yours but it's not valid for people who happen to just like linux to ask for not being blamed for the words of other people of a crowd they most probably has never meet personally?¿What is the reasoning behind your answer?
-¿How does it made feel you that people blames VP for words that are supposed to be only yours? ¿Do you think is fair?
-¿how would it make you feel if people blames you for what VP does despite you not being in charge of the decision that made people upset?

The thing is that if what you're speculating may be true then whoever is in charge of deciding if porting or not is punishing a lot of people who didn't had anything to do with the harassment.

I cannot talk for other people and i know there's just too much people that doesn't deserve to be defended because, if i do it, then i also i also need to justify their actions. however i'm talking because i think is fair to see the other side of the coin and even more if you consider that even now there's people talking against that kind of behaviour. Ask yourself the following: ¿I'm filtering only the bad posts and ignoring the people who raised it's voice against the harassment? ¿Do they deserve to be treated like this?

Also please tell me if you think that the people who was not involved in the harassment deserve this:
-¿What about the people who was a linux gamer back then but didn't knew or was interested in the Witcher series, so didn't even knew about the harassment?
-¿What about the people who doesn't like to talk a lot or doesn't want to involve themselves in problems? ¿Do they deserve to be punished due to a situation where they don't have any control or even interest in participate?
-¿What about the people who was a Windows/Mac gamer back when the incident happened and then decided they liked linux and are now linux gamers?

Also. ¿What about the people who was angry back then and was vocal but later they retracted or feel bad about what they said? Yes, they have a fair share of the guilt. Remember that the internet and anonymity enables people to say and do things they'd not dare to do in real life due to the heat of the moment. No, there's no excuse and much less for stupid things like death threats, however you also are asking for people to forgive what you have said in the past and to reconsider that what you said back then doesn't necessarily reflects what you think today. If we assume there's people among the crows that hurt you back then that reflected on what they did. ¿Do they deserve to not be forgiven forever?

I know how being bullied feels and i'm pretty conscious on the kind of sequels and consequences it can have. I don't blame you. Despite i don't have any responsibility on what happened the only thing i can say is: i'm sorry. I'm sorry about what happened to you and is something that should not happen to anyone but i hope you understand that controlling other people is impossible, the most it can be done is to enforce rules and moderate the same way Liam is doing, but this is not possible everywhere and i hope you understand this.

I know you don't work on VP any more and that you don't have any influence on the port. This post is not about the port but about you because i'm worried about your words and because i feel you're hurting yourself and people that doesn't deserve to be hurt more than the ones that actually hurt you back then.

Thanks for your attention and believe me when i tell you that is not my intention to attack you.

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Quoting: slaapliedjewhen I was first trying it, worked perfect, second time around everyone was missing their lower portion of their bodies!

See https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=26114#notes

Quoting: slaapliedjeStill stuck on the first boss...

Do you mean the Beast? It can be somewhat annoying indeed. Make sure you use Specter Oil.

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I probably would have finished the first one by now if it'd been ported. I know it sometimes works great in wine (when I was first trying it, worked perfect, second time around everyone was missing their lower portion of their bodies!)

Still stuck on the first boss...

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Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: ertuquequenot to mention the absolutely unjustified "Capitalization Of Every Word In His News Titles".

That's how they format headlines in the US. It's common practise.

I know it is a common practice in the US, but that's a really bad habit! (and I'm very glad you guys in the UK and other places don't do that)... It's not that uncommon to stop for a few seconds trying to understand a title that says something like: "People Claim That An Apple Is Better Than Other Brands"... It would be much easier to immediately understand it if it just said: "People claim that an Apple is better than other brands"... That way you know they're referring to the Apple brand and not just an apple fruit... This not-that-uncommon problem defies the very purpose of a title, which is to give a quick look at the content of the article. I'm not a native English speaker by any means (Latin America here), the English I've learned is basically self taught, and from time to time I find myself having better grammar than native English speakers. (The same thing happens -probably more- with Spanish articles/posts). But it's frustrating to see that in what are more or less "high profile" web sites. Not to mention that when I've pointed grammar mistakes or bad habits on these sites, responses are "dismissive" in the best of cases.

Just in case, I find the grammar in this site to be VERY, VERY good, and the "For spelling, grammar and other corrections click here" button is absolutely well thought and a professional way of addressing those problems.

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Quoting: SamsaiI still swear by SSR+Audacity over OBS. OBS is a good program for streaming and quick desktop captures but SSR allows for a bit more tweaking and recording commentary with Audacity means I don't need to load up a file into Audacity afterwards.

See, that's what I'd be interested in a tutorial on. I currently record my voice on an old smartphone, move it to my desktop, process it in Audacity, and add it in Kdenlive, but I'd love to learn how to just simultaneously record in Audacity from my microphone (at which point I might be able to justify actually buying a decent one!). :)

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Friendly and well needed reminder that this theory is what Jaycee thinks, he never tried to say it as a fact or anything near official, it's just his guess on the matter....

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Not buying it.

Insults and threats are bad, but:
Insults are something you get to deal with when growing up (especially on the internet).
Threats are to be handeled by the police.
This 'i got threatened and insulted'-card is a poor excuse or a way to get money for professional victims.

Again, not saying insults or threats are ok.

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Sad, that's true.

Now for me even after numerous fixes TW2 was very crash prone, especially when plugging in an XB 360 pad. But now VP ports are really fine, so it would be nice TW3 gets released.

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This theory is unsound. Sure, as is the general consensus in the comments here, personal attacks and unconstructive cruel behavior are bad and never justified and a lot of people are sorry it happened to CDPR, VP and jaycee personally. But the article and jaycee's theory lump it together with the rationale behind the fate of the Witcher 3 port. Indeed, the article is titled "The Witcher 3 didn't come to Linux likely as a result of the user-backlash from The Witcher 2". No, it's really not likely at all. If it was true it would be quite an anomaly, simply because... let's just count the developers who said things like "1% of the market, 50% of bug reports, too little money, too much effort" and developers who said "we won't support Linux because Linux players are rude". Oh, yes. Yep. The ratio would be something like 1000 to 0 I reckon. The fact that our main competitor on PC harbors around 95% of the relevant userbase inevitably means that it includes the majority of the most toxic people around. And while, again, their behavior doesn't excuse anyone else's, it'd be somehow both unimaginably naive and hypocritical to view toxic people in the Linux community as in any way representative while successfully tolerating uncivilized people everywhere else. Furthermore, unlike Linux, Xbox actually has a bit of a reputation for having a toxic community, and will you look at that, The Witcher 3 is available for XboxOne. Huh!

As creators and successful ones at that, CDPR are probably well beyond the point of accepting the presence of people who are going to be very negative for the sake of those who will be joyful and grateful (and profitable). And a lot of people would be very happy and grateful if they brought The Witcher 3 to Linux, they gotta understand that.

I very much agree with what Csharp and Kels have said here. And also there is that timeline that Shmerl posted that sounds pretty damning.

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attaboys..just THANKS!

fcking retards!

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: NyamiouThe idea that a company would judge an entire community over the reaction of a few individuals no matter how loud they can be is completely unacceptable, if CDRP are really like then they got the hate they deserved.

And "they got the hate they deserved" is the problem. People like YOU are exactly the problem.

People like me? WTF? seriously. Also thx for quoting out of context, that's nice.

Seriously, you are a troll trying to turn people of the Linux community against each others. I don't know why you are doing that and I don't understand why people listen to you, but what I know is that they probably shouldn't.

Give me one good reasons you are telling that stuff, even if it were to be the truth, given the harm it does to the community?

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Quoting: KimmoKMthere comes a point where you have to draw a line and say "this is not okay", and a product that's worse than what was already available (Wine), in my opinion, clearly falls in that category.

As for the majority of outraged commenters, Linus Torvalds has made this same argument much better than I will (defending his harsh language in LKML with retroactive abortations and usage of Finnish swear words because English isn't potent enough, shouldn't be difficult to find) but the fact of the matter is that in the Internet you can't communicate your seriousness with a tone of voice or body language, and non-native English speakers in particular might lack the vocabulary and understanding of connotations to signify they really mean business without resorting to language you wouldn't see offline. I don't know you or remember any messages targeted at an individual person so presumably I didn't follow the unfolding drama in full back in the day, but I can imagine the language in some of the on-topic posts, and that is business as usual.

Any person with half a brain and some manners is able to communicate dissent in a respectful manner. Linus Torvalds is a brilliant programmer, but I don't think there is a way to justify his way his behavior in any shape or fashion. He can be a totally rude jerk, and the fact that he invented the OS of our choice doesn't change that he needs a crash course in basic manners. People who think that immature trash-talk is an acceptable way to talk to others just because they can't see your face or have to show theirs, are pretty much a part of the problem. And please don't tell me that Linus Torvalds can't speak enough English to convey what's on his mind in an acceptable way. That's just laughable. The guy is rude because he IS rude.

I get the idea that we as a community sometimes feel screwed and marginalized. I don't like companies not delivering promised ports. I don't like getting badly optimized and untested software. I don't like getting told that there will be yet another delay, because anything but us is more important than finishing that port. I don't like being told that we don't matter. Or that we just should install Windows if we want to play games. And yet NONE of this gives me to right to get rude.

I find people defending these morons every bit as bad as the morons themselves, really.

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Quoting: TheBardLook at what GOG does with Galaxy. It is still supposed to come to Linux "eventually" (see the FAQ), they even maked it "in progress". But 2 years after ... still nothing.

The Galaxy issue is actually more annoying than "there is no client, so I have to update games manually". It actually can prevent various Linux games from coming out on GOG. I just opened a thread about it here.

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Personal attacks against developers is indeed unforgivable and should never happen. I'm sorry for what happend to you Jaycee. But i can't beleive that this is the only reason why CDPR canceled the project.

At the time, Valve seems to have done a lot to convince companies to port their games on our platform. Many devs said they would not have done it without Valve. Maybe they were expecting higher sales from TW2.

My bet is CDPR and GOG see us as too small to invest now but they do not want to to close the door either. So they stay in between. Look at what GOG does with Galaxy. It is still supposed to come to Linux "eventually" (see the FAQ), they even maked it "in progress". But 2 years after ... still nothing.

CDPR guys are not stupid, they knew the release was made much too early. The port was not ready for public release. Don't get me wrong, VP did a very good job! The port increased a LOT after release and next ports by VP are very nice. But CDPR could not expect being acclaim with a public release which was mostly unplayable.

So a note to VP: we love you, keep offering us good ports :) To CDPR and GOG: stop hiding behind excuses. If you don't plan to port games/tools on Linux, just say so. Being honest is the best way to build a respectful relationship. But as far i'm concerned, i'm done with CDPR/GOG. There are lots of respectful dev and stores who deserve my money much more.

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Quoting: CJORMaybe you want to add SDL_VIDEO_MINIMIZE_ON_FOCUS_LOSS=0
SDL_VIDEO_MINIMIZE_ON_FOCUS_LOSS=0 ./UE4-Linux-Shipping UnrealTournament -opengl4

Thank you, very helpful !

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Just reading about this all makes me sad. Thanks Jaycee for doing wonderful work getting some VP titles onto Linux. I played through Saints Row 4 with my girlfriend recently, and I am digging into Micro Machines right now and quite enjoying it. I wish the rest of the community were less toxic.

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Quoting: KimmoKMLinus Torvalds has made this same argument much better than I will (defending his harsh language in LKML with retroactive abortations and usage of Finnish swear words because English isn't potent enough) but the fact of the matter is that in the Internet you can't communicate your seriousness with a tone of voice or body language, and non-native English speakers in particular might lack the vocabulary and understanding of connotations to signify they really mean business without resorting to language you wouldn't see offline

Linus Torvalds is a very poor example of proper speech on-line. Most find his justification to be unacceptable.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: KimmoKMthe backlash at the time was 100% justified

People emailing me personally saying they hoped i would fucking die was justified?

Those are included in "commenters that without doubt went overboard". There is a difference between comments that stay within topic of quality of port or companies that allowed it to be released, no matter how harshly worded they might be, and commenters that leave the public forum to specifically target an individual who in all likelihood doesn't deserve all the blame.

But you know, I and probably all of us here want Linux to be a good and successful gaming platform, and while it is a fact of life we're going to be second-class citizens for most developers and one that we have to grudgingly accept, there comes a point where you have to draw a line and say "this is not okay", and a product that's worse than what was already available (Wine), in my opinion, clearly falls in that category.

As for the majority of outraged commenters, Linus Torvalds has made this same argument much better than I will (defending his harsh language in LKML with retroactive abortations and usage of Finnish swear words because English isn't potent enough, shouldn't be difficult to find) but the fact of the matter is that in the Internet you can't communicate your seriousness with a tone of voice or body language, and non-native English speakers in particular might lack the vocabulary and understanding of connotations to signify they really mean business without resorting to language you wouldn't see offline. I don't know you or remember any messages targeted at an individual person so presumably I didn't follow the unfolding drama in full back in the day, but I can imagine the language in some of the on-topic posts, and that is business as usual.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: NyamiouWho know if this guy is really who he claim he is, jaycee_1980 doesn't bring any results anywhere except on reddit and he's only been here for a month. Also who would use this surname, Jaycee is the name of a girl who was born in 1980 and was abducted at 11 year old for 18 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jaycee_Dugard. For me this guy is a massive troll, plain and simple.

Obviously you think Liam is stupid then. Look me up on Steam. Ask Liam himself.

Even if you are who you claim you are, it doesn't means what you are saying is true, you might knowingly or unknowgly be exagerating the truth, making it up or missing important parts. The idea that a company would judge an entire community over the reaction of a few individuals no matter how loud they can be is completly unacceptable, if CDRP are really like then they got the hate they deserved.

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DELETED, Sorry

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Quoting: GuestIndeed they do. But now, justify the extra expenditure of doing this to the board of directors. That's a lot of investment, for 1% of the market.

They apparently already explained it. They planned to make REDengine a product on its own, i.e. they wanted to license it to other developers. Making it cross platform in that context already is about not falling behind competition. They even explicitly spelled out those plans in their past yearly reports.

But during their last public meeting with shareholders they suddenly announced that those plans to release REDengine were cancelled (no reasons given). That also spelled doom for release of their full blown modding tools for TW3, which upset quite a lot of people. I.e. those modding tools were supposed to be some version of their engine editor they were planning to release for others.

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Quoting: bingusI wonder if there is something we could do to show we aren't all jerks. Maybe CDPR needs cookies.

Talk to them directly, they read comments, even if they don't reply.

Vote here and here.

Post a comment here.

Very few people ever posted in CDPR forums about interest for Linux versions. The impression is always, no one cares.

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Quoting: GuestInstead I was roasted alive and got sent (to my work and personal email accounts, and my personal Facebook account, Steam account etc) tons of very hateful mail, telling me/my family to go and die, and such like.

Damn, that's messed up.

I wonder if there is something we could do to show we aren't all jerks. Maybe CDPR needs cookies.

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Quoting: Guestedit: Even if the renderer was Vulkan and the middleware paid for, that does not equal a Linux port. You still have to have the expertise to deal with and support Linux. Look at all the smaller devs who have thought that all they need to do is ship a binary, and have gotten severely burned when they were unequipped to deal with the technical support.

CDPR have more than enough money to hire experts. They hired a lot of developers to work on CP2077. So that's not really an excuse. No one is stopping them from investing in their engine, and making it truly cross platform. I.e. no wrappers and etc. - native Linux development from day one.

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Unfortunately these extreme haters won't ever leave the gaming community, developers must accept that they are the loudest ones and just ignore them. They are not representative of the community as a whole.

In saying that if they added in VulkanAPI support to their Witcher3 game then it would make for a rather smooth transition to Linux, and allowing for windows users to enjoy the benefits also. Trying to convert DX11 to OGL IMO never seems to yield very good results.

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Quoting: aldyThese are really sad news. After finishing The Witcher 2 I was waiting to play the sequel :'(

Wine developers are doing better job than CDPR, to make that a reality. See here.

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The windows community is just as vitriolic. I saw this some time ago.
It talks about the 'Mass Effect 3' and the back lash from the community.
It caused valve to rethink HL3 development.

View video on youtube.com

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These are really sad news. After finishing The Witcher 2 I was waiting to play the sequel :'(

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