Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

I have not linked ANY Twitter posts so far. What are you talking about.

Apologies--I must be conflating some of your posts with other people who have been complaining big time about this Coraline and linking to her tweets.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: DolusHere, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

That is about political 'leanings' as opposed to an official affiliation with any particular party. And that is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. There really is only one group wearing the neon hair right now. And it's not the anime community anymore. And I'm a bisexual deist, btw, so you can take everything else you were trying to imply here and shove it.

I'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

A year from now Linux is going to end up JUST like FreeBSD. Half of the community is going to pack up and leave because they were accused of being everything from a Nazi (I saved a screen cap, btw) to a *phobe of every variety JUST for believing this CoC is not *just* about playing nice. And this entire thread shows that to be true.

You really are going overboard here. Calm down.
a) Coraline is in no way involved in the Linux kernel. You are bringing her into this discussion when she has nothing to do with it beyond authoring the CoC. And if that's sufficient to destroy a project, you'd best tell Google, Microsoft, Apple, and thousands of Open Source projects that apparently they shouldn't be in existence because they use the same CoC. Let me repeat this: Coraline has _no_ involvement in the decisions made about the CoC as it relates to the Linux kernel. None.
b) RMS disapproves of codes of conduct in general, but otherwise this doesn't affect him. That's all he's said. Hardly "taking a stand".
c) It's really easy to have a discussion disagreeing without stating that half the community will be accused of being a Nazi (and actually, looking back, I don't think you were - but I do see how you might have felt that way). It's not about disagreeing that a few are having problems about with your comments - it's the way you're coming across (hint: not as reasonable). You're own words are aggressive. This will only result in people being aggressive back to you, and you don't then have the right to complain about it. Calm down, at least try be more reasoned, see where it gets you. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help you here.

Oh, so being the author and engineer of the COC is nothing, huh? What if it had been Richard Spencer who wrote it with the idea to promote his views in the open source community? Would you say that was "irrelevant" then? I wouldn't. And RMS has said GNU would NEVER have a CoC like this one; that IS taking a stand. And I literally was implied to be a tiki torch wielding Nazi. I have the screencap.

I don't know the reference, but the image I saw looked seriously like a comedy film to me. Something more out of Rocky Horror. That was not calling you a Nazi. Walk through some of the camps and then continue your banter about that.

Well, hrm, yeah, but I still thought it was in pretty bad taste. And all that context that was invoked was retroactive--sure, I believe it was there, more or less, but it wasn't specified with the original offending post, and it wasn't specified IMO precisely to leave the non-ironic resonances intact. I would get seriously pissed off if someone did something like that one to me and I would not be appeased by a "where's your sense of humour?"
I did think it was crossing the line and I'm glad Liam took it down. It was exactly the kind of thing that a Code of Conduct (or in this case a good moderator) should stop. Just because I find Dolus to be a poor and aggressive communicator doesn't mean suddenly anything goes in communicating back.

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Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: Purple Library Guytuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

Most people don't have a problem with a CoC. It's THIS CoC that is the problem. I don't have a problem with the Ruby CoC, for example.

That really, really, really isn't how your comments to this point have been sounding. The general tenor has been along the "all limits on how people can talk in lists are nefarious SJW plots cuz they're out to get us" lines.
If that's your opinion you might have made it clear, oh, somewhere around the time a bunch of the people you were arguing with expressed that exact same opinion while you were going off on them.
So what's all the heat about then? Do you have some kind of old personal vendetta going with this Coraline person or something?

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Quoting: DolusI'm about done with this community. Were it not for RMS and GNU taking a stand against this CoC, I'd be done with open source/Free Software in general. This community, on the whole, has been more than happy to go about mocking people like RMS and ESR all day for their lack of social graces FOR DECADES, but, suddenly, sexist bigoted bullies (you want proof, I'll be more than happy to link you to Coraline's Twitter posts) like Coraline Ada are lionized and protected from critical comments.

First, I have always been generally supportive of Richard Stallman. It's my opinion that the backlash against him is essentially corporate in nature--he constitutes something of a threat to the dominant commercial mindset and so he gets marginalized. This has little to do with the nature of the Open Source/Free Software community in specific and much more to do with the nature of the broader society it is in. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to agree with every single word he ever says; I can see him disagreeing with something like this CoC, but that doesn't in itself change my opinion of the matter. Or my generally very positive opinion of RMS. I'm not as big on Eric Raymond, who doesn't strike me as a very similar person even though they're often talked of in the same breath.

Second, you've linked to a bunch of twitter posts and none of them seem to me to mean what you portray them as meaning--in some cases so obviously that I find it hard to buy the notion that you are sincere in believing your portrayal.

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Quoting: Dolus

Quoting: tuubi

Quoting: baccilusThat is why the burden of proof lies with the one making an accusation. A vague CoC does away with that.

Yet even a vague CoC gives some definition as to what actually is an offence that warrants action and who gets to decide on the verdict. Without a written document, it's all arbitrary. Naturally there needs to be proof of said offence, but that and witnesses are usually easy to provide in these cases. It's the Internet after all.

And please, remember that project management and criminal justice are two very different things. Not being allowed to contribute to a volunteer open source project isn't exactly a death sentence. It might hurt your career of course if your contributions are on behalf of your employer, but there's a simple solution: Treat others with respect and don't be a dick.

The problem is that what "being a dick" means can be arbitrary.

tuubi just made the point that what "being a dick" means is far more arbitrary if you don't even have a document to define what "being a dick" is.
So really, that's a problem with not having a CoC more than with having one.

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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: scainePresumably just a different QA process. They'll need to check it doesn't break any of the whitelisted titles. I suppose it's weird that it hasn't hit the beta channel though.

I don't know if this already has been discussed, but the option page seems to suggest that Steam is keeping different versions for different games (a bit like PlayOnLinux)...

Huh - I wasn't aware of that. Makes sense though - once they get something "right", they don't want future versions breaking it. That whole regressions angle is the main thing that I think kills Wine for me. I've lost count of times where previously perfectly working games suddenly stopped working after an update.

I suppose that kind of thing will always happen to some extent, but I think Wine (and by extension, Proton) are at a point now where "maturity" is within view. Always up to now Wine has been at a stage you might call "heavy development" . . . sometimes in slow motion, but the point is the major infrastructure was still being put together and shifted around on a near-constant basis. And OK, we're not out of the woods yet, but it really feels to me like there's only a few really big things left, like .Net issues and stuff. After that it'll be moving on to smaller, higher-hanging fruit, taking care of smaller issues, then details, looking at speed and memory issues . . . far from maintenance mode, but to a stage where major breakage will be much less common, at least until you get to that point where people say "OK, this needs serious refactoring" and re-break everything . . . but even that will sit in a development branch where it won't bother most people.

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On the Code of Conduct itself: I'm willing to believe the wording has problems that may need to be worked out. Wording is hard, wording that sort of thing is particularly hard. It may also be that a CoC can't really be a cureall because the governance structure itself at the Linux Kernel has problems that need to be worked out--indeed, if it has none that would be a first in human history.

But does there need to be some sort of Code of Conduct taken fairly seriously at the Linux kernel? Oh hell yeah. Come on, could we get real?

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Quoting: PatolaA small example is using the code of conduct to try and implement the same compelled speech that was attempted in Canada: if you refer to a person by a pronoun he or she disagrees, you might face jail time.

I'm Canadian and that is nonsense. I've seen a lot of people here, wittingly and unwittingly, making a lot of dubious references in their attempts to pump the "SJWs are coming for us!" narrative. A lot of quotes taken out of context and twisted, a lot of skews from what really happened. This is one of them.
http://sds.utoronto.ca/blog/bill-c-16-no-its-not-about-criminalizing-pronoun-misuse/ [External Link]
IMO, if the SJW conspiracy scare had much to it there would be no need for this sort of spin. It's probably true that any given progressive bunch, like any other bunch, has some dorks in it. Big deal--some people are dorks, film at 11.

But also, as a Canadian, I would like to mention where the real threat lies in some of this scaremongering rhetoric. So, the current premier of Ontario is Doug Ford--brother of the now-deceased ex-mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford, who was best known for doing crack with gangers. Anyway, he too is deeply upset about the supposed anti-free-speech ways of SJWs, specifically on university campuses. So in the name of free speech, he says he's going to cut funding from universities if they don't discipline students and de-fund student unions which protest displays by such groups as anti-abortion campaigners or alt-right speakers. He's given them four months to get the policies in place. So, banning protest in the name of free speech--that is where the right wing backlash against "SJWs" wants to go. I'm waiting cynically for the "anti-SJW" forces to start jailing protestors in the name of free speech.

There's a lot more people been jailed, kicked off campuses, denied jobs or tenure et cetera et cetera (not to mention assassinated--Martin Luther King anyone?) for being in favour of social justice than for being against it. But I think in the old days they at least didn't try to pretend they were doing it to defend free speech.

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Quoting: DolusHere, is a little something that might blow your mind: I do not care. I do not care about a contributors sexuality, religion or political affiliation. If their contributions make Linux a better kernel, they should be allowed to contribute. That is how it should be. Instead we now have these neon haired puritans

So, not their sexuality, religion or political affiliation, but you do care about the colour of their hair.

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Quoting: johndoeAnd to be honest I think that a Linux user should be able/learn to compile a newer Xorg server - it's really easy.

Yeah, some of us are in it to use our computer, not fiddle with it.

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