Quoting: PeciskDevelopment of Metal most likely was dictated by Apple's hardware design, not Vulkan in particular.

Spot on.

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Quoting: slaapliedjeThis is the thing here. If Vulkan was a Linux Only API, then it'd probably very rarely get used. The fact that it was being worked on before Metal (it derives from AMD's Mantle), and Apple had stopped supplying newer OpenGL, they were specifically trying to be more anti-competitive to Linux/other BSDs.

Metal's initial release was in June 2014 -- but it was announced in 2013. Around the same time, AMD and DICE started to work on Mantle together. Vulkan's first official release was in February 2016.

Apple does not care about Vulkan or Linux gaming at all. They're focused on their own products as a combination of hardware and software. Metal was initially developed to drastically improve GPU performance on the iPhone and iPad while still being energy-efficient for longer battery life.

Does someone really think the richest company in the world is following a hidden agenda against the adoption of desktop Linux or even Linux gaming?

They own around 33 % of the mobile market -- Android (with Vulkan) is still the dominant platform, especially in developing countries and the tiger states. Vulkan has prominent support from Google.

Trust me, we've worked with Apple as a dev for many years. They play by their own rules, they are very sensitive about what content is being released on their platform and their development guidelines. They never cared about games in a big, meaningful way like Microsoft or Sony -- it was kind of an accident that iOS became the biggest mobile gaming platform. Now they're a gorilla in the gaming space -- if they like it or not -- but I highly doubt they secretly plot against Linux/BSD.

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Quoting: RedfaceI just bought this from humble [External Link] where you get both a steam key and a DRM free download (including the Linux version)

Did the same yesterday. The game's running flawlessly on SteamOS, but I somehow can't change to 4K resolution -- at least not in BPM.

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Quoting: Shmerl1. Lock-in taxes cross platform development making it more expensive.
2. In practice it means some simply won't do it, and will limit their releases to bigger platforms (not Linux).

MS, Apple, Sony and the like do a lot to perpetuate lock-in and tax developers who don't want to limit releases to their platforms. Example of that is them not supporting Vulkan on their locked systems.

1. Depends on the kind of software you're developing. If we as a development studio want to use OS and hardware specific features like Touch ID on Apple devices -- a native app is the way to go. But in many cases we're just building a HTML5/web app with a 'native' viewer/container on our target platform and it works perfectly fine. Both MS and Apple promote HTML5 usage and discard proprietary plug-ins like Flash. It's not always black and white with the big corporations.

2. The reason why you can't port to any platform is resources, especially regarding support after release. iOS for example is very easy to maintain because most Apple users update their devices regularly and it's a relatively unified ecosystem with a limited selection of hardware to test stuff on (we as a small studio can afford to test on the most popular devices).

3. Vulkan on Sony and Apple hardware
Both vendors don't license out their operating systems or technology. They even build their own chips (Sony in the past with Cell, Apple with their customised A+ chips). You cannot legally build and sell an 'alternative PlayStation' or a copycat iPhone. Those companies make money with their fixed/locked hard-/software combination and exclusive features. This is different from MS's business model, which relies on building an OS platform for anyone to use and build whatever they like.

If Microsoft as an 'open platform supplier' decides to ignore or even prevent Vulkan this is much more crucial to Linux' development as a viable gaming platform than Sony or Apple doing their own thing.

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Quoting: qptain Nemo

Quoting: JanOh, boy. Are you kidding? macOS -- unlike iOS -- is an open platform just like Linux.

You're calling a platform that is literally illegal to crosscompile to (more precisely, no legal way exists yet and all other ways are explicitly made illegal by Apple) open just like Linux? Who's kidding now? :)

macOS is open from an end user's perspective: You're free to install any software you want, use the terminal, don't use any Apple Services like iCloud or Apple Music/iTunes, download software from websites or Steam. Apple does not force you to use the Mac App Store (except for OS updates) -- unlike on iOS where the App Store is mandatory.

Some people constantly mix up iOS and macOS, which is tiring to be honest.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: JanWhy should Nividia or AMD develop an API for Apple? They don't develop APIs for Microsoft or any other company either.

Not sure what you mean. On Windows, all major vendors (Intel, AMD and Nvidia) develop and support open APIs like OpenGL and Vulkan. They don't develop it "for MS". They do it for users and developers who rely on these APIs. So again, what stops them from doing it for MacOS? Only Apple's crooked political insistence on lock-in.

Even Microsoft is supporting Linux and open source in certain areas. Apple's programming language Swift is open source and supports Linux. Both embrace HTML5 in a big way. I don't get the hate for the "crooked policies" of commercial entities.

Apple is a private company offering a complete package made of hardware and software. Both are developed and sold together. Much like in the console or automobile space. Integration is key for Apple. That's why they insist on their own solutions -- it simply works for them.

They never intended to build an open software platform for anyone, they always wanted to sell a complete solution. This would have been possible with Vulkan as well, at least on the desktop, but maybe not so well on their mobile devices. We can only speculate.

I just don't like this sentiment of the "evil" Apple corporation and their "cultish and blind" following. That's just crap. Long time Mac users are very critical of a lot of things Apple is/was doing. Without the Mac software scene there wouldn't be any AAA games on Linux.

Aspyr, Feral, VP -- they're all Mac developers. I've been following these companies for the last 20 years and they all built up their business on Apple software before expanding into new markets like cross-platform publishing (Aspyr) or iOS development (Feral).

We as Linux gamers should be glad that there's a successful operating system similar to ours, which makes it easier for developers to take a risk and spend additional time and money for a Linux version.

You don't have to like Apple as a company or their policies, but the constant bashing of macOS and its community won't help Linux grow.

After all, the Mac has been good for Linux' development as a viable gaming platform.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: JanIf that is true, allow me to ask you a question: Who is developing the official NVidia Web Driver for macOS to support their latest GPUs like the GTX 1080 if Apple prevents them to do so?

Apple surely let's them to do something, but not enough to address lacking APIs. That's why I have quite a strong disrespect to Apple. They are one of the worst lock-in jerks in existence.

Why should Nividia or AMD develop an API for Apple? They don't develop APIs for Microsoft or any other company either. They try to sell GFX cards and develop optimised software to sell more than their competition to performance oriented users.

And how do you measure the quality of this "something"? Do you use Macs with Nvidia cards on a regular basis to back up your statements?

I agree with you that it would be better if all the big players would have agreed on Vulkan and dropped their proprietary solutions. But it won't happen: Microsoft sticks to DirectX and Apple developed Metal (for iOS) long before Vulkan was a "finalised" standard.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: JanOh, boy. Are you kidding? macOS -- unlike iOS -- is an open platform just like Linux.

In many ways it's not. Why don't Nvidia and AMD release proper graphics drivers for MacOS? They could address the problem of lacking Vulkan and stalled OpenGL there easily. Apple doesn't let them. So it's far from open (I'm not even talking about FOSS, I'm talking about some flexibility). In the graphics sense, Windows is actually way more open than MacOS.

If that is true, allow me to ask you a question: Who is developing the official NVidia Web Driver for macOS to support their latest GPUs like the GTX 1080 if Apple prevents them to do so?

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: JanApple is not abandoning the Mac at all.

They have just announced the iMac Pro with Xeon CPUs, external GPU support, Metal 2 and a new high-end Mac Pro coming in 2018/2019 along with new Cinema 5K Displays.

After stalling for how long? Dropping in some update after years of doing nothing is not called "not abandoning". Also, they clearly don't care about their own users and developers, otherwise they would have updated their OpenGL to latest versions. I.e. good luck trying to run something like The Witcher 3 in Wine on MacOS - it won't work, because OpenGL is stuck there at around 4.1. For all intents and purposes, Linux is much better for gaming.

You do realise Apple has their own graphics API called Metal? They have officially dropped OpenGL support and encourage all developers to switch to Metal, just like Feral did with F1 2017, Hitman or Dawn of War III.

It's not the route I would have taken, but Apple chose to do their own thing just like Microsoft with DirectX. There will be no official Vulkan support on Mac or iOS, which is not good for the API, but Apple will most likely get away with it. They have a strong user base.

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Quoting: Leopard

Quoting: ShmerlNice. As you can see, it's way higher than so called Steam survey, which only highlights, that the later is pretty useless. It all depends on the game, and I'd say on developers and their engagement with Linux community. I'd be also interested in some numbers from inXile and Obsidian, who like Beamdog release cross platform from day one.

Also, I'm somewhat surprised that MacOS sales stay high, despite bitrot of the system, and Apple basically abandoning their own desktop.

MacOS sales are staying high because most of the people are thinking having an Apple branded system is a privelege. So suddenly MacOS being a status sign for them and that is keeping them on the ecosystem : Ego.

Also note that , Apple ecosystem makes people much more binded to their platform. Purchase history made them tied with Apple Market.

On the other hand , Linux is replaceable and there is nothing to lose if you abandon Linux.

If you abandon Windows , you will lose games. If you abandon MacOS you will lose that feeling of being special.

Oh, boy. Are you kidding? macOS -- unlike iOS -- is an open platform just like Linux. You are not forced to buy software from the Mac App Store or use iCloud at all. There's a terminal, X11, whatever you like. The only downside compared to other *nix systems: You need a physical Mac to run it. But even that is not an issue anymore (visit tonymacx86) if you go the Hackintosh route, which Apple doesn't mind at all, they just won't grant support.

Believe me, there are people who have been running their businesses solely on Macs long before Steve Jobs was back at Apple, the iPod or iPhone were even thought about. The old-school Mac community is just as passionate as Linux people and a lot of them are entrepreneurs and top notch creatives. They don't care about ego or advertisements, but about ROI, working solutions and great support.

We couldn't run our studio solely on Linux, because there's no professional video editing or design software available for Linux. Building apps for iOS would be complicated, etc. I'm glad macOS exists, I'm glad Linux exists -- we use both to their strengths and don't need Windows except for testing purposes.

So, please, stop the "Macs are only for superficial egoists" bullshit. It's simply not true. Hundreds of thousands of creative professionals worldwide might agree.

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