Quoting: slaapliedjeI have used docker, the engineers love it at work. I agree it is great for development. But when moving to production where the hardware is there and you don't want multiple containers floating around, it is much better wothout them. Of course this all depends on how many different applications make your 'stack'. I set up FreeNAS with a bunch of jails and it was a pain getting all of the various IP addresses and services split up to talk to each other securely. I ended up ditching that and going with openmediavault, which supports docker as well, but it is easier for me to just throw it on the host system, since I don't need to separate them out.

As usual, it depends ;) Docker and similar software do solve some specific problems, but are _not_ the solution for everything. Know your tools and especially know what they are not made for ;)
Software containers aren't a replacement for packages. But in certain situation, when you have a very different lifecyle and update frequency between your application and your host, when you need very fast CI/CD or when your runtime dependencies are not trivial, they solve a lot issues for you, especially in bigger environments.
(That said, they are a lot of valid concerns against Docker in production. Give it time, it is still a relatively new technology.)

Back to the topic: Having a flatpak steam environment or the Steam runtime with a stable set of libraries is imho a requirement for a gaming company like Feral. You can't expect them to support every game they have published on every new Linux flavor until the end of time. I have seen people blaming Feral in public that their games aren't yet compatible with Ubuntu 17.10 (that isn't even released yet!). This is just stupid/unfair and hopefully something like flatpack can help here.

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Quoting: slaapliedjeSo... the whole docker/flatpak/snap thing... Isn't this in essence what .dmg files are on a Mac? The container itself has lots of files in it, but the user only sees the executable file

Remark: I have a lot of experience with Docker, have played a little bit with flatpack and no experience at all wit snap.

Well, you shouldn't compare containers with package formats. While they both serve a similar purpose, bringing software to your machine, the concepts are differently. It is not just about how packaging works, but mostly how it behaves. Isolation and layers are the keywords. Looking at Docker from a functional perspective you'll see more similarities with Virtual Machines, but without the guest OS overhead. Every container runs natively on the host machine, but has its own runtime, own file system and its own network adapter. You are able to run e.g. multiple mariadb/database server containers in different version on the same host with just a few commands (very useful for development when you need to simulate a bigger cluster on a single machine). I strongly advise to play a little bit with docker, it's very easy and once you got the difference between image and container the penny will drop. Flatpack is similar but with focus on UI applications. Same with docker, isolation makes the difference. You can run e.g. run Gnome-MPV on a Gnome 3.26 Runtime and Gnome Twitch on a Gnome 3.24 Runtime without any interference between the flatpaks.

All container solution seems overkill at the beginning, but once you got the gist they aren't. I certainly see the benefits, for both background processes via docker and UI applications via flatpaks.

See also: https://docs.docker.com/get-started/ [External Link]

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Quoting: slaapliedjeDrop d/p/09_default_session.patch: Start the "gnome" session by default,
"default" is always starting a X11 session but we want to start a Wayland
one starting from now.

Thanks for the confirmation. How very progressive of Debian ;)

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Quoting: GoLBuzzkillOMFG Flatpacks, Snaps, Dockers, containers... Developers should know what does their application use and ship it together with application in this case game, with a option for a user to overide it and use system libs, and when couple of years months passes and developers dont give a shit about updating, something breaks, user can still use outdated libs that are shipped with a game. No fucking need for snappy, flappy, dockyy and other in this scenario useless stuff.
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And if devs really want to be hardcore, they can ACTUALLY SUPPORT LINUX/FLOSS, and update their game with new version of libs if something breaks or if there is security issue, in 99.99% of cases they just need to ship updated version of lib in 0.01% of cases recompilation will be required and in insignificant number of cases they may actually need to change their code; WOW it is so hard to support Linux.
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Valve really fucked things up with Steam runtime, SteamOS and 32bit client and it is a proof that they dont know what they are doing, it is fine on Windows where M$ does all the work to be backward compatible; on FLOSS if you keep your source closed you need to do that work and if you open it up users/packagers/community will do that work, it is soo simple i dont know why noone gets it.

Please start your own company and show them all. I'm sure you got what it takes!

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Quoting: slaapliedjeMy problems with Wayland are similar. That and there are unnecessary pushes to force people to use it when it clearly isn't ready. Debian a while back had changed the default session for gdm to start Gnome Shell with Wayland.

Are you sure Debian did this, I would not expect such move from them?
Fedora did the same a few releases back. The decision to switching default to Wayland is a tough one. At some point you need to release software and bring in into the field, otherwise it wont mature at all. For a distribution like Fedora, being bleeding edge everywhere, this seems a valid move. More stable distributions like Debian should indeed hold back for a while.

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Quoting: GuestI'm sure you're right; anyone watching how popular Humble was on Linux and why, could do well by bringing in what worked, but learning from any mistakes. There didn't used to be GOG and Humble etc, or much, as you describe, so I'm sure you're correct that new organisations emerge, especially as so many people have come over from Windows or dual-boot with Linux ... there's a whole new wave of people who are very pro-Linux, so I'm sure the future's bright.

Well, yes and no. I guess Linux is growing and it seems a beautiful place for Indie and AA games. I'm sure we will see more and more smaller games on Linux in the future, so looks good. Regarding the big AAA titles I guess the next years will be similar to the last 2 years, something like 5 AAA titles a year from porting houses like Feral. I guess the market is still to small to justify more big titles and furthermore the big publishers want DRM/at least Steam for their titles which is rejected by part of the Linux gamers. Dunno how it will look in 5 years.
But indeed, you can't compare today with 5 years ago.

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Quoting: adamhmSure, if the majority of the Linux community rejected DRM it would pose a problem for getting AAA titles but I don't think that's anything to be worried about since the majority will tolerate Steam (it's the only DRM I'll consider tolerating, but it will require a very low price/deep discount though and depend on the game & publisher).

Anyway I've been resisting DRM ever since it became a thing & it's one of the factors behind my decision to move to Linux, so I'm not about to change my position on that... I'll just continue to do what I can to support both Linux and DRM-free releases :)

I'll just continue to support Linux, still consider Steam for Linux a blessing, happily pay for and enjoy Feral/Aspyrer ports and other AAA publications. I hope many more Linux users will do too ;)

Thank you for this discussion. It was a pleasure talking with you!

PS: And yes, I would also refuse a DRM solution that would force me to install something as root or similar. But that is not the case right now, so no need to think about this.

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Quoting: adamhmIt was the same before, except that now the publisher retains such "ownership" and control.

Yes, but i would say that the whole gaming industry has changed, not just the way how studio/publishers want to make the most out of it. I grew up with Lucasfilm titles ala Monkey Island 1 and Indy 4. While not discrediting the games of this ages (these are still very cool titles), I think you can't compare that with a production like DeuxEx:MD, GTA5 or similar. There is way more money involved and the Inernet changed all classical distribution channels. I can certainly understand that some shareholders want some kind of control before starting such investments. Note that I'm not saying that DRM is a must, I just want to empathize that more has changed than just the introduction of DRM.

Quoting: adamhmI agree that we need more big name titles but as I said before, DRM-free and Linux support are two separate issues and publisher attitudes towards both of them are (slowly) changing for the better. And both need people to show publishers that there is a market for them :)

Yes, separate, but not completely separate. If the whole Linux community would reject all DRM solutions you will/would never see Linux ports of AAA games and thus Linux for the Desktop will never reach the mass of people. My strategy would be to not fight all battles at the same time. I would fight first for Linux adoption, that includes the acceptance of some necessary evil like DRM. When that battle is won and Linux is a serious player with a no longer negligible market share you have some tools in your hand to fight DRM ;)

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Quoting: adamhmA lot of what I do is to help Linux grow. I promote Linux on GOG with things like my beginner's guides and my Wine wrappers plus many Linux-focused giveaways.

Thank you for doing so. Really very cool that you choose to actively help.

Quoting: adamhmI prefer to buy rather than rent...

Yeah, this is what this all is about. I used to think the same way. I pay, thus something is mine. But nowadays I prefer to compare the consumption of movies, music or games with going to the cinema. I pay some money not to own something, but to have a good time. When paying e.g. 50 Euros for a game, I actually pay for 60 hours of entertainment. I'm not saying that this is the perfect deal, but I can arrange myself pretty good with this thinking. It's take and give in. I give in on the right to own and in return I get entertaining hours and convenience. Steam, Netflix or Spotify reduce the time between the wish for entertainment and the actual consumption to a minimum. The number of entertainment hours are theoretically limited, but until now I never reached that limit. When I finish a game I move on and usually don't look back. There is so much more to do ;) As stated: for me time is way more precious than to "own" digital content.

Quoting: adamhmOn top of all that, even if it's successful at stopping piracy for a substantial period of time DRM doesn't actually help sales.

No, its certainly not an argument to increase sales. But it works the other way around, DRM gives the big publishers the feeling to stay in control. Even if it's just a feeling, this can be a tipping point for a decision in a big company to whether or not to publish to Linux. The long term goal is to get more users to Linux, you need the big boys for that.

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Quoting: LeopardWhy are we paying for products in the first place?
Because by supporting platforms , developers or publishers are guarentee a certain level of compability and performance.

Thank you for being honest and speaking out on this, but sorry, this is just nonsense and a very bad excuse. If you use commercial software without paying for it then this is called theft. There are developers and companies that invested into a piece of software and you decided to not honor their contracts. It doesn't matter at all how honorable your arguments are for the Linux community, if you are using a supported platform or if it perform well or not on your hardware etc.

Edit: Replace "piracy" with "theft".

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