Thank you for the news, I would've missed this one without you. Exactly the kind of small experiences I am looking for. Nice Visuals, short story but meaningful and for me the soundtrack fits the theme very well.

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Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: TobyGornow

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: TobyGornow

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowMaybe the Orange box was the wrong example ( still an exclusive, You could install Half life 1 without Steam ), take Yakuza 0 instead : you cannot buy it physically, in any way, even if you could you'll be kindly invited to connect on Steam. You can buy it on Humble or elsewhere, sure... and activate it on Steam. In any case, you'll end up on Steam. That's why I said it's time that Valve gets a taste of his own medicine, there is a lot of exclusive on Steam that are not Valve's IP.

That's the publisher's fault for not releasing it anywhere else. That's completely different from what Epic is doing. Other devs release their games on multiple stores.

Same thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.
And in Epic case, they just made a cash proposition to Deep silver that was accepted, it's just fair business against a competition using the same tools and again no emotions in business. I repeat it : Deep Silver should suffer a massive boycott of their games but it won't happen, people are sheep waiting to be shaved and then put down. Epic is not at fault here, they are just competing against an enemy in an almost monopolistic position and they need big guns in order to do it. Valve is not a Care Bear, they deserve some hard competition.

Compare it to the only supermarket in town. It has a good relationship with other, smaller stores in the neighborhood, and it even develops stuff usable by them too. Still it might be the only store who sells bananas in the whole area you live in. When someone else opens up a supermarket next to it and claims the whole banana market for itself (say for the next year, prunes is forever), you really think that's the same?

Man, thanks for dumbing it down for me... My Turn : Metro exodus bought on Amazon (or Wherever) and forced to be activated on Epic Store = Exclusivity / Yakuza 0 bought on Gog or Humble (or Wherever) forced to be activated on Steam = Exclusivity.
And because you like to play on words : They are not claiming the whole Banana market just a new variety they PAID for. And again, YOU are right those methods are digusting but common practices in retail or others market, Valve is no stranger to those.

Edit : The friendly local supermarket you described fu***ng killed physical distribution of Pc gaming, nice relationship if you ask me.

No dumbing down (sorry if that sounded like it) .. just trying to make myself clear.
The way I see it:
Valve invented online stores the way steam is. More and more developers and publishers marketed their games on Steam, because more and more gamers wanted to purchase their games on Steam. Some more online stores came up, mostly to publish their own games, but some offer third party games. Valve never gave anyone money to offer their games on Steam only. A lot of developers and publishers still choose to offer on Steam only, thats true, but this is not Valves doing. They are open to competition. They even develop tools, APIs and standards in an explicitly open fashion.
People say Valve needs competition, and it's true, but what Epic does is something different, because there is no competition for exclusive deals. They seek multiple micro monopolies, while talking about fairness and openness. If they can only be sustainable when beeing unfair, then Steam has to become more unfair to be able to compete. I don't want that!

Don't apologize, friendly discussion can be shaky.
I've got a problem with your unfair bit, why is it unfair ? For the customer, already agreed. For Valve ? Not sure. It's business, differentiation through product, nothing filthy or vicious in this, nothing unfair, they are imposing their rules as much as Valve imposed their for years.

True they developed tools and stuff but only in their interest at the end and it's easy to be open and friendly when you have almost no competition.Let's see about that in 2 years.

True, publisher are choosing whether or not they sell on Steam, but do they really have the choice not to if they want to sell big numbers and cover their expenses ? Don't think so. Steam became the mandatory platform and without asking and paying, thanks to their monopoly, got exclusive titles, how insidious.

Quoting: Smoke39

Quoting: TobyGornowGeez... I never said Valve asked or paid for exclusive, they worked as a mandatory gateway for consumer without needing to pay a dime for it thanks to their quasi-monopolistic position, and Yakuza was just a prime example that I bought on Humble. If I have to register my game on this platform, only this platform, and I don't have a choice about it if I want to play it, it become an exclusive for this platform in my books, Valve paying for it or not, am I right ?

IMO nor Epic nor Steam is the culprit here, Deep Silver is the filthy prostitute, is that clear ? But you can't blame Epic to take action in order to get a slice of the pie, it's just simple business, they are paying to get a product the others don't have in order to get more customers, again & again & again you are right 100% about the disgusting move but it's business 101. Valve didn't have to pay or ask for exclusives in their store, they were coming by themselves (hence Yakuza 0 example), Tencent is just cranking up the heat and it's just fair game, if valve wants exclusive they will NOW have to pay for it.

Please, I beg you, stop saying Valve is nice or nicer than Epic it hurts. They are crooks with their 30% cut, Quasi-monopolistic positon for years, they killed physical distribution with more than aggressive pricing, Steam can be considered as a DRM locking down pc gaming to their platform, and let's wait and see if source 2 Engine games will be distributed outside Steam, announcement has been made 2 years ago when they were still undisputed. Unreal Engine is free to use too don't know about their distribution politics tho.

Let's time decide if Steam is a lesser evil than Epic. And again I'm on your side, I hate exclusives, I was pissed when I learned that Bloodborne was not coming to PC. :wink:

There's a difference between a developer independently choosing to release exclusively on the platform with the largest customer base, and being paid for exclusivity. One is a regrettable but legitimate logistical decision, the other is an active effort to harm the customer for a cheap buck.

Yes, it's bad that Deep Silver sold out their own customers for bribe money, but Epic is also bad for offering the bribe, something you seem unwilling to condemn them for. They're BOTH at fault here.

You also seem to begrudge Valve just because they're large. But they got to that point on their own merits, by building up a quality service, not bribery. Stronger competition would be good to keep Valve from getting complacent, but it should be by offering a legitimately better service, not by dragging the market through the mud.

They're large because they eat a lot and I don't hate nor love them, no grudge, just stating that Valve is not what it seems to be, it's a business venture generating billions, the same thing goes for Epic. You are not bad for proposing an exclusive partnership, accepting it knowing you will alienate your customer base is. And except a minority like us, who is harmed ? the majority won't care a bit. Fallout 76 still sold, people don't care, no harm done.

Last message for me on this subject, we won't agree for sure, I'm thinking cold hard business decision since the beginning, exclusive distribution is what it means for me, paid or not, voluntarily or not, and maybe I'm out of place on a forum so attached to Valve for good reasons. I don't pretend I'm right but for me it's just another day in the global market where Valve found a new motivated challenger to the throne.

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Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: TobyGornow

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: TobyGornow

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowMaybe the Orange box was the wrong example ( still an exclusive, You could install Half life 1 without Steam ), take Yakuza 0 instead : you cannot buy it physically, in any way, even if you could you'll be kindly invited to connect on Steam. You can buy it on Humble or elsewhere, sure... and activate it on Steam. In any case, you'll end up on Steam. That's why I said it's time that Valve gets a taste of his own medicine, there is a lot of exclusive on Steam that are not Valve's IP.

That's the publisher's fault for not releasing it anywhere else. That's completely different from what Epic is doing. Other devs release their games on multiple stores.

Same thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.
And in Epic case, they just made a cash proposition to Deep silver that was accepted, it's just fair business against a competition using the same tools and again no emotions in business. I repeat it : Deep Silver should suffer a massive boycott of their games but it won't happen, people are sheep waiting to be shaved and then put down. Epic is not at fault here, they are just competing against an enemy in an almost monopolistic position and they need big guns in order to do it. Valve is not a Care Bear, they deserve some hard competition.

Compare it to the only supermarket in town. It has a good relationship with other, smaller stores in the neighborhood, and it even develops stuff usable by them too. Still it might be the only store who sells bananas in the whole area you live in. When someone else opens up a supermarket next to it and claims the whole banana market for itself (say for the next year, prunes is forever), you really think that's the same?

Man, thanks for dumbing it down for me... My Turn : Metro exodus bought on Amazon (or Wherever) and forced to be activated on Epic Store = Exclusivity / Yakuza 0 bought on Gog or Humble (or Wherever) forced to be activated on Steam = Exclusivity.
And because you like to play on words : They are not claiming the whole Banana market just a new variety they PAID for. And again, YOU are right those methods are digusting but common practices in retail or others market, Valve is no stranger to those.

Edit : The friendly local supermarket you described fu***ng killed physical distribution of Pc gaming, nice relationship if you ask me.

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowSame thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.

It's not the same thing. They just chose to go there and use Steam, while you can still buy the game at many other stores.

And I'd be happy for other stores to get Yakuza without the Steam-connection. THQ is doing that for example. You can buy Darksiders 3 pretty much everywhere, which is something Valve promotes.

You can buy Metro Exodus on Amazon or at your local supermarket but will be forced to activate it on Epic Store. Deep silver chose to go with Epic like Sega decided to go with Steam.

Guys, I'm on your side here, just saying that Valve is not the nice player you want him to be and, from my point of view, Proton / SteamPlay is just Valve trying to scrap the bottom of the pot for the last crumbs giving you the illusion they care about you: they are not, they answer only to dollars. Those company are not giving anything for free, believe me I work for one of those big global retail company. And remember you still have your free will to not eat banana, I know it's good but you can live on prunes or apples. Eat local.:wink:

Is there something special with Yakuza?

Usually Valve never asks for any kind of exclusivity. If Yakuza is only available on Steam, it's on the publisher who decided it was the way to go. Nothing prevents them, tomorrow to publish the game somewhere else. That's the major difference with Metro: Exodus and Epic's deal; cash was laid to make sure the game won't be on another store for a complete year.

That's how Valve works, usually, unless there is something special with this game?

Proof of that: If Valve had exclusivities of any forms, Epic wouldn't have been able to make that deal with Deep Silver and Metro: Exodus would still be on Steam.

Nothing special with this game, just the fact that they had exclusives all the time without paying for them, they were alone and the mandatory platform to be if you want to sell your game. Now, Epic is showing that Valve is not alone anymore and they'll need to write some check if they want the latest title. It's console war exclusive all over again.

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Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: TobyGornow

Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: TobyGornow

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowMaybe the Orange box was the wrong example ( still an exclusive, You could install Half life 1 without Steam ), take Yakuza 0 instead : you cannot buy it physically, in any way, even if you could you'll be kindly invited to connect on Steam. You can buy it on Humble or elsewhere, sure... and activate it on Steam. In any case, you'll end up on Steam. That's why I said it's time that Valve gets a taste of his own medicine, there is a lot of exclusive on Steam that are not Valve's IP.

That's the publisher's fault for not releasing it anywhere else. That's completely different from what Epic is doing. Other devs release their games on multiple stores.

Same thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.
And in Epic case, they just made a cash proposition to Deep silver that was accepted, it's just fair business against a competition using the same tools and again no emotions in business. I repeat it : Deep Silver should suffer a massive boycott of their games but it won't happen, people are sheep waiting to be shaved and then put down. Epic is not at fault here, they are just competing against an enemy in an almost monopolistic position and they need big guns in order to do it. Valve is not a Care Bear, they deserve some hard competition.

Compare it to the only supermarket in town. It has a good relationship with other, smaller stores in the neighborhood, and it even develops stuff usable by them too. Still it might be the only store who sells bananas in the whole area you live in. When someone else opens up a supermarket next to it and claims the whole banana market for itself (say for the next year, prunes is forever), you really think that's the same?

Man, thanks for dumbing it down for me... My Turn : Metro exodus bought on Amazon (or Wherever) and forced to be activated on Epic Store = Exclusivity / Yakuza 0 bought on Gog or Humble (or Wherever) forced to be activated on Steam = Exclusivity.
And because you like to play on words : They are not claiming the whole Banana market just a new variety they PAID for. And again, YOU are right those methods are digusting but common practices in retail or others market, Valve is no stranger to those.

Edit : The friendly local supermarket you described fu***ng killed physical distribution of Pc gaming, nice relationship if you ask me.

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowSame thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.

It's not the same thing. They just chose to go there and use Steam, while you can still buy the game at many other stores.

And I'd be happy for other stores to get Yakuza without the Steam-connection. THQ is doing that for example. You can buy Darksiders 3 pretty much everywhere, which is something Valve promotes.

You can buy Metro Exodus on Amazon or at your local supermarket but will be forced to activate it on Epic Store. Deep silver chose to go with Epic like Sega decided to go with Steam.

Guys, I'm on your side here, just saying that Valve is not the nice player you want him to be and, from my point of view, Proton / SteamPlay is just Valve trying to scrap the bottom of the pot for the last crumbs giving you the illusion they care about you: they are not, they answer only to dollars. Those company are not giving anything for free, believe me I work for one of those big global retail company. And remember you still have your free will to not eat banana, I know it's good but you can live on prunes or apples. Eat local.:wink:

Is there something special with Yakuza?

Usually Valve never asks for any kind of exclusivity. If Yakuza is only available on Steam, it's on the publisher who decided it was the way to go. Nothing prevents them, tomorrow to publish the game somewhere else. That's the major difference with Metro: Exodus and Epic's deal; cash was laid to make sure the game won't be on another store for a complete year.

That's how Valve works, usually, unless there is something special with this game?

No, he just doesn't seem to get that. And it's not even "usually." It's always. Valve never asks for exclusive deals.

Back when they announced the Source 2 Engine (which they still have to release, but that's another topic) they said it will be free for everybody to use, with the only requirement that any game using it ALSO has to be sold on Steam. That's it. That's the opposite of exclusivity.

Geez... I never said Valve asked or paid for exclusive, they worked as a mandatory gateway for consumer without needing to pay a dime for it thanks to their quasi-monopolistic position, and Yakuza was just a prime example that I bought on Humble. If I have to register my game on this platform, only this platform, and I don't have a choice about it if I want to play it, it become an exclusive for this platform in my books, Valve paying for it or not, am I right ?

IMO nor Epic nor Steam is the culprit here, Deep Silver is the filthy prostitute, is that clear ? But you can't blame Epic to take action in order to get a slice of the pie, it's just simple business, they are paying to get a product the others don't have in order to get more customers, again & again & again you are right 100% about the disgusting move but it's business 101. Valve didn't have to pay or ask for exclusives in their store, they were coming by themselves (hence Yakuza 0 example), Tencent is just cranking up the heat and it's just fair game, if valve wants exclusive they will NOW have to pay for it.

Please, I beg you, stop saying Valve is nice or nicer than Epic it hurts. They are crooks with their 30% cut, Quasi-monopolistic positon for years, they killed physical distribution with more than aggressive pricing, Steam can be considered as a DRM locking down pc gaming to their platform, and let's wait and see if source 2 Engine games will be distributed outside Steam, announcement has been made 2 years ago when they were still undisputed. Unreal Engine is free to use too don't know about their distribution politics tho.

Let's time decide if Steam is a lesser evil than Epic. And again I'm on your side, I hate exclusives, I was pissed when I learned that Bloodborne was not coming to PC. :wink:

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Quoting: Nevertheless

Quoting: TobyGornow

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowMaybe the Orange box was the wrong example ( still an exclusive, You could install Half life 1 without Steam ), take Yakuza 0 instead : you cannot buy it physically, in any way, even if you could you'll be kindly invited to connect on Steam. You can buy it on Humble or elsewhere, sure... and activate it on Steam. In any case, you'll end up on Steam. That's why I said it's time that Valve gets a taste of his own medicine, there is a lot of exclusive on Steam that are not Valve's IP.

That's the publisher's fault for not releasing it anywhere else. That's completely different from what Epic is doing. Other devs release their games on multiple stores.

Same thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.
And in Epic case, they just made a cash proposition to Deep silver that was accepted, it's just fair business against a competition using the same tools and again no emotions in business. I repeat it : Deep Silver should suffer a massive boycott of their games but it won't happen, people are sheep waiting to be shaved and then put down. Epic is not at fault here, they are just competing against an enemy in an almost monopolistic position and they need big guns in order to do it. Valve is not a Care Bear, they deserve some hard competition.

Compare it to the only supermarket in town. It has a good relationship with other, smaller stores in the neighborhood, and it even develops stuff usable by them too. Still it might be the only store who sells bananas in the whole area you live in. When someone else opens up a supermarket next to it and claims the whole banana market for itself (say for the next year, prunes is forever), you really think that's the same?

Man, thanks for dumbing it down for me... My Turn : Metro exodus bought on Amazon (or Wherever) and forced to be activated on Epic Store = Exclusivity / Yakuza 0 bought on Gog or Humble (or Wherever) forced to be activated on Steam = Exclusivity.
And because you like to play on words : They are not claiming the whole Banana market just a new variety they PAID for. And again, YOU are right those methods are digusting but common practices in retail or others market, Valve is no stranger to those.

Edit : The friendly local supermarket you described fu***ng killed physical distribution of Pc gaming, nice relationship if you ask me.

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowSame thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.

It's not the same thing. They just chose to go there and use Steam, while you can still buy the game at many other stores.

And I'd be happy for other stores to get Yakuza without the Steam-connection. THQ is doing that for example. You can buy Darksiders 3 pretty much everywhere, which is something Valve promotes.

You can buy Metro Exodus on Amazon or at your local supermarket but will be forced to activate it on Epic Store. Deep silver chose to go with Epic like Sega decided to go with Steam.

Guys, I'm on your side here, just saying that Valve is not the nice player you want him to be and, from my point of view, Proton / SteamPlay is just Valve trying to scrap the bottom of the pot for the last crumbs giving you the illusion they care about you: they are not, they answer only to dollars. Those company are not giving anything for free, believe me I work for one of those big global retail company. And remember you still have your free will to not eat banana, I know it's good but you can live on prunes or apples. Eat local.:wink:

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Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: TobyGornowMaybe the Orange box was the wrong example ( still an exclusive, You could install Half life 1 without Steam ), take Yakuza 0 instead : you cannot buy it physically, in any way, even if you could you'll be kindly invited to connect on Steam. You can buy it on Humble or elsewhere, sure... and activate it on Steam. In any case, you'll end up on Steam. That's why I said it's time that Valve gets a taste of his own medicine, there is a lot of exclusive on Steam that are not Valve's IP.

That's the publisher's fault for not releasing it anywhere else. That's completely different from what Epic is doing. Other devs release their games on multiple stores.

Same thing dude, Yakuza is tied to Steam as much as Exodus is tied (temporarily) to Epic store, that's simple exclusivity for me, Valve made us and dev captive for too long, today your a big publisher you have to put your catalog on Steam otherwise you'll sell peanuts.
And in Epic case, they just made a cash proposition to Deep silver that was accepted, it's just fair business against a competition using the same tools and again no emotions in business. I repeat it : Deep Silver should suffer a massive boycott of their games but it won't happen, people are sheep waiting to be shaved and then put down. Epic is not at fault here, they are just competing against an enemy in an almost monopolistic position and they need big guns in order to do it. Valve is not a Care Bear, they deserve some hard competition.

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Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: TobyGornowJust want to add that you were forced to create a Steam account in order to play CS and Half-life when you bought the Orange Box. For me Epic is just giving Valve a taste of his own medicine.
How pissed I was at the time but little by little, I was buying less physical copy from my brick & mortar retailer (Bankrupt today) and now I have more than 400 titles in my library just because it was cheaper. Did I do that alone ? Don't think so...

It's evolution of the market, maybe Valve has been too greedy, the new player is strong and full of arguments, who will survive ?

Yeah but nobody is complaining about Fortnite, actually or any Origins IP. It's not the same context at all. We are talking about a game that had a pre-sale campaign being removed 2 weeks before release. Timed exclusives are always bad but I can cope with that if done correctly. What just happened with Metro: Exodus is just aweful and terribly unrespectful toward Steam users, imo.

You're right too. I was just pointing that Valve too used the exclusive card to trick me into their shop at a time where you didn't have to connect to anything. Valve is not a friendly company, they are a profit organisation.

I feel your bitterness. It's sad but don't expect human emotion ( respect ) from 4A & Deep Silver, they only speak in profit and Epic brought some with him, the minority that barks at the caravan will still play the game or not, the majority doesn't care at all and will consume what they are fed with a big smile. I'm still amazed Facebook worked...

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Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: TobyGornowJust want to add that you were forced to create a Steam account in order to play CS and Half-life when you bought the Orange Box. For me Epic is just giving Valve a taste of his own medicine.
How pissed I was at the time but little by little, I was buying less physical copy from my brick & mortar retailer (Bankrupt today) and now I have more than 400 titles in my library just because it was cheaper. Did I do that alone ? Don't think so...

It's evolution of the market, maybe Valve has been too greedy, the new player is strong and full of arguments, who will survive ?

And the exact equivalent of that would be if Epic would only sell Fortnite on the Epic Store, something that few if any here complain about.

You're totally right. I was just underlining that before Steam I could just buy games elsewhere and install it, Valve forced me, in a way, to connect to their shop to play their exclusive, playing a big role in the decline of physical shop and their higher cost. In the same way, Epic store could drag people and dev to their shop with lower prices and exclusives and at the end kill some of the actors of the market.

Maybe the Orange box was the wrong example ( still an exclusive, You could install Half life 1 without Steam ), take Yakuza 0 instead : you cannot buy it physically, in any way, even if you could you'll be kindly invited to connect on Steam. You can buy it on Humble or elsewhere, sure... and activate it on Steam. In any case, you'll end up on Steam. That's why I said it's time that Valve gets a taste of his own medicine, there is a lot of exclusive on Steam that are not Valve's IP.

But again you are right, what Deep Silver did is not fair to their customer and deserve pure and simple boycott.

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Just want to add that you were forced to create a Steam account in order to play CS and Half-life when you bought the Orange Box. For me Epic is just giving Valve a taste of his own medicine.
How pissed I was at the time but little by little, I was buying less physical copy from my brick & mortar retailer (Bankrupt today) and now I have more than 400 titles in my library just because it was cheaper. Did I do that alone ? Don't think so...

It's evolution of the market, maybe Valve has been too greedy, the new player is strong and full of arguments, who will survive ?

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4 of my previously installed games were to be re-downloaded entirely the moment I reactivated SteamPlay in the global settings and during the download it stopped multiple times, went in queue, restarted.

Maybe activating Steamplay per title instead of doing it in the settings to avoid this problem ?

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