EU court upholds fine against Valve for geo-blocking

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: KoopacabrasCorrect me if I am wrong, but EU comission ruling is against regional pricing, not against regional blocking.

No, it's about the blocking. An EU citizen getting lower prices buying elsewhere in the EU is Working As Intended as far as they're concerned. What they really don't want are barriers to goods and services. Like these. Or, as they put it, "today's sanctions against the "geo-blocking" practices of Valve and five PC video game publishers serve as a reminder that under EU competition law, companies are prohibited from contractually restricting cross-border sales. Such practices deprive European consumers of the benefits of the EU Digital Single Market and of the opportunity to shop around for the most suitable offer in the EU."

The EU Commission made a handy picture previously

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that Liam included in his earlier coverage.

thanks for the explanation! 👌

Quoting: poiuzThe ruling does not condemn region locks, they must only comply with the law.

I think I understand the ruling, but I may have hijacked the topic to air my personal grievances with physical media. I disagree strongly with the idea that any country should be allowed to tell you what you can and can't watch, and even more strongly with the idea that any company should be allowed to restrict this.

Quoting: poiuz

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualRegion-locking shows on streaming services is bad enough, but region locking physical media is incredibly greedy.

Isn't the same true for any DRM?

That DRM is incredibly greedy? Yes. I think region locks are the best example of this.

Quoting: poiuz

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualWas anyone allowed to publish a hardcover book which would combust if a customer attempted to open it in Australia?

That analogy doesn't work, you can still use the mediums in the foreign regions. You simply require a device compatible with the region.

Or you could flash the player with free software firmware that will do as you tell it to. Fortunately, that's actually legal in Australia with an exception to Section 1201 of the DMCA.

I enjoy the idea of a book bursting into flames if you dare to upset the publisher, but if you want a more accurate analogy, perhaps imagine a book you can only open in a certain country.

Comparing hardcover books to ebooks, some ebooks are region restricted: https://help.bookwalker.jp/faq/en/1048

For a straight DRM example with no region locks, there was that time Amazon closed my account, taking the 50 ebooks and several audiobooks I'd purchased along with it. I've never had anyone from a bookstore break into my house and take back the books I'd paid for without refunding me. That isn't to say book burning hasn't happened historically.

I'm getting increasingly tired of being treated this way by companies.

Quoting: KoopacabrasCorrect me if I am wrong, but EU comission ruling is against regional pricing, not against regional blocking. Maybe on this case, on the time frame were this happened people could buy keys from third party sites from other cheaper EU regions, and activating them in their own region was legal an ToS complaint?

The issue is complicated because these companies used region locking to enforce regional pricing. I personally don't have much to say on regional pricing, but I don't believe region locks should be employed in any consumer product for any reason.

Quoting: F.UltraNow you probably talked in more general terms, but just for people who don't know both DVD:s and BR:s are a single region inside the EU so they are both already not region locked as per EU regulation.

I did not know this; thanks for telling me! Being from Australia myself, most of the stuff I want to watch is from another region. Namely, Region A for Blu-Rays. But I'm in Region B.

It's still legal to region lock DVDs and BRs, for some reason. In Australia, circumvention of these access controls for the purpose of making a private backup is completely legal (assuming you don't later infringe on the owner's copyright with that backup). It's an incredibly bizarre state of affairs...

Quoting: robvvIn the UK, at least, you could buy DVD players from legitimate stores back in the day which came pre-chipped to avoid all that nonsense. One of my first purchases from Scan was one such player!

I went around to various stores a few years back trying to find a region-free DVD player as a gift with no such luck. I ended up buying a region-locked player. I'm in Australia. Nowadays, I use MakeMKV.

---

As far as games being affordable in different regions, I've always found Community Copies on itch.io interesting. It's the idea that someone can pay for an extra copy of a game, and anyone interested can claim it. There's obviously an honor system, but it's a nice way of supporting the creator while making games affordable to everyone.

Obviously, this only really works well for indie games

Quoting: F.UltraNetflix does no such thing, if you bought your account in Norway you can still access the service in Croatia, or Austria. There is no geo-lock on your account. Yes there is differences in available media depending on where you login to Netflix but that is not Netflix being asshats, that is different IP holders having different rights to media and thus different agreements with Netflix. Aka distribution company X might have the rights to show Y in Norway while company Z have those rights in Croatia and if only one of them have decided to make an agreement with Netflix then ofc Netflix is forbidden from showing that content in one of those areas or Netflix would be found guilty of copyright infringement. And there is draconian law allowing EU to force a single company to have the rights to the entirety of the EU, such things are handled by each local country.

Sorry for jumping in here, but I did say "region-locking streaming services is bad enough".

Here's something I think is interesting. TV Shows and Movies work completely differently in terms of copyright infringement to, say, books and music.

Music, in my opinion, has the most fair licensing. You can't prevent anyone from commercially exploiting your music due to compulsory licensing. This is far, far better for the customer. They don't have to search several streaming services finding the song they like because any service can license it and send the royalties over to the creator. However...you can still get region locks depending on where the copyright holder makes it available.

Am I not understanding something here? Are these songs actually licensed not under the compulsory model, but rather a voluntary licensing agreement between the distribution platform (e.g. YouTube) and the copyright holder? Why would they do that? Wouldn't the distribution platform end up with fewer rights at a greater cost?

With books, there is no compulsory licensing, but you will never get region locks. How would you even enforce that with physical books? With ebooks, you almost never get region locks.

And with film, there is no compulsory licensing, and region locks are everywhere.

I don't think I have to explain what my preferred model is. And I would prefer if copyright terms were far more reasonable (we can keep the 1989 amendment that implicitly grants copyright protection to works without a copyright notice, but 28 years is long enough for protection).

Quoting: pleasereadthemanualQuoting: poiuz

Quoting: pleasereadthemanual
Was anyone allowed to publish a hardcover book which would combust if a customer attempted to open it in Australia?

That analogy doesn't work, you can still use the mediums in the foreign regions. You simply require a device compatible with the region.

Or you could flash the player with free software firmware that will do as you tell it to. Fortunately, that's actually legal in Australia with an exception to Section 1201 of the DMCA.

I enjoy the idea of a book bursting into flames if you dare to upset the publisher, but if you want a more accurate analogy, perhaps imagine a book you can only open in a certain country.

well region locking isnt going to ever be completely removed, because states do their own region locking .
just silly examples, power adapters, current, ethanol cut on gasoline, wifi channels, wifi antennas power, cell phones frequencies... etc.. etc.
Let's not forget that how they implemented the region lock in the 90s was to make cartdriges NTSC or PAL-N.
So to effectively remove all region locks you would have to implement worldwide cell phone frequencies, etc etc, everything should be standarized to a single standard. Or maybe make everything multi-standard
(I know, I know lol I am getting waayyy off topic but just trying to point out, that region locking is symbiotic with the system we live in)

(also the article is about geo-blocking based on an IP address, but this is part of the broader topic I guess)


Last edited by Koopacabras on 29 September 2023 at 6:52 am UTC

We need to stop fining big tech companies m's. Best to fine them b's. If they don't behave with the b, threaten them with the t. Especially the big ones which hold most of the internet in a vice grip.

Wasn't this in relation to Lost Ark, which was blocked in countries that had outlawed lootboxes, as they wanted their MTX sales?

so is the takeaway from this that companies are obligated to make a seperate version for those regions with blocked features, or are they not allowed to release in Europe at all if certain countries within have laws that conflict ?

Not that I would ever support toxic MTX practises, but I'm trying to grasp the legal implications of this if just not releasing in regions that doesn't allow your content isn't a viable solution.

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Mal

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: MalOk. But if it's illegal for Valve why is it legal for Netflix, Disney and all the other national media in Europe?

Netflix doesn't do what Valve was accused of doing, if you buy Netflix in Croatia you can still logon in Norway with the same account, that is why VPN services works for Netflix to get access to different catalogues of media.

It's not a matter of correctness of regulation. Ofc EU Regulation allow it to Netflix. But that because EU Regulation is hypocritical.

There is stuff you can watch in Norway and not in Croatia and viceversa. That is geo-locking, they offer different content in different regions, that you can only consume in those regions. Not to mention that prices are also different. EU can call it whatever they want but it's geo-locking. People in the single market pay differently and obtain different services depending where they live.

Then yes with VPN you can also login in UK and play steam eastern version of the game. The only difference here is that Valve is generally smarter because they serve a smarter audience and it makes it more difficult since you also need other credentials like a valid cc card where Netflix is dumber.

Or are we saying that the whole point in EU is that geo locking is fine only as long as you can easily circumvent it with a plain nord vpn for few bucks at months?

No it is not hypocritical, it is two completely different things. Valve and the listed publishing houses had different prices for the same product inside the EU single market with a geo-lock that meant that it hindered the free movement of services and goods that exists inside the EU single market.

Netflix does no such thing, if you bought your account in Norway you can still access the service in Croatia, or Austria. There is no geo-lock on your account. Yes there is differences in available media depending on where you login to Netflix but that is not Netflix being asshats, that is different IP holders having different rights to media and thus different agreements with Netflix. Aka distribution company X might have the rights to show Y in Norway while company Z have those rights in Croatia and if only one of them have decided to make an agreement with Netflix then ofc Netflix is forbidden from showing that content in one of those areas or Netflix would be found guilty of copyright infringement. And there is draconian law allowing EU to force a single company to have the rights to the entirety of the EU, such things are handled by each local country.

Had Ubisoft had the rights to Mass Effect in Germany and Warner the rights to it in Austria then both could have sold the same game in Steam with different prices and with geo-locking and it would have been legal, but that is not what happened.

Quoting: Craggles086What is wrong with setting a price at a level that is affordable to people in a lower economic block / region.

Something that is available to everyone in the UK or France and Germany is only available to the wealthy in the Baltic states?

I thought the EU was a democracy?

Or am I reading this wrong..

Yep, think I read it wrong. :)

No your thinking is wrong here, not your reading. There exists zero laws in EU against you having different prices in different regions of the EU. If you live here you already know that since there is no EU mandated price for tomatoes across every single member state and every single store. Valve and the game publishers are completely free to sell games cheaper in say the Baltics, what they are not allowed to do is block a person from Germany that bought the game in the Baltics to install his game in Germany.

It's hypocritical man. You're just fixated with explaining to me the law which I already do (and I know is not Netflix fault, at least for the catalog, the different pricing is their fault). And you're ignoring the practical effect, the so called "ideal principle" that is held for a certain economical category but not for another.

It's just a law that prohibits geolocking to Video games IP holders but allows it for music, video and press rights holder benefits.

It defends consumer rights in one case, private interests in another. It's as simple as that.


Last edited by Mal on 29 September 2023 at 9:50 am UTC

Quoting: NyxWasn't this in relation to Lost Ark, which was blocked in countries that had outlawed lootboxes, as they wanted their MTX sales?

No. The formal proceedings started in 2017. Valve say that the investigation started in 2013, and that they stopped doing the regional blocking (except in cases of legal requirements, like Germany's content laws) in 2015. Lost Ark didn't release in Europe till 2022.

Quoting: Koopacabraswell region locking isnt going to ever be completely removed, because states do their own region locking .
just silly examples, power adapters, current, ethanol cut on gasoline, wifi channels, wifi antennas power, cell phones frequencies... etc.. etc.
Let's not forget that how they implemented the region lock in the 90s was to make cartdriges NTSC or PAL-N.
So to effectively remove all region locks you would have to implement worldwide cell phone frequencies, etc etc, everything should be standarized to a single standard. Or maybe make everything multi-standard

DVD region codes are not different in any practical way, whether it's Region 2, Region 4, A, C, or whatever. It's an entirely artificial restriction. The proof of this is that region codes can be completely circumvented by libdvdcss with no side effects. And here I thought the purpose of the Berne Convention was to bring every country's copyright laws in line so we didn't need to deal with arbitrary limits on distribution rights like the territories you can sell in. Gah. I'm pretty sure this is what is making compulsory licenses needlessly complex too.

With power adapters, there is an actual technical difference, and the RIAA won't come at you for circumvention if you plug your adapter into a converter. The NTSC vs PAL-N thing is somewhere in-between.

Alright, I would be willing to compromise. If the US government revokes Section 1201 of the DMCA, they can keep the region locks. Let the unsung heroes like MakeMKV break the locks open. I mean, in some countries this is already the case for DVDs/CDs/BRs. But do it for games too!

(especially visual novels, thank you)

Quoting: Mal

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Mal

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: MalOk. But if it's illegal for Valve why is it legal for Netflix, Disney and all the other national media in Europe?

Netflix doesn't do what Valve was accused of doing, if you buy Netflix in Croatia you can still logon in Norway with the same account, that is why VPN services works for Netflix to get access to different catalogues of media.

It's not a matter of correctness of regulation. Ofc EU Regulation allow it to Netflix. But that because EU Regulation is hypocritical.

There is stuff you can watch in Norway and not in Croatia and viceversa. That is geo-locking, they offer different content in different regions, that you can only consume in those regions. Not to mention that prices are also different. EU can call it whatever they want but it's geo-locking. People in the single market pay differently and obtain different services depending where they live.

Then yes with VPN you can also login in UK and play steam eastern version of the game. The only difference here is that Valve is generally smarter because they serve a smarter audience and it makes it more difficult since you also need other credentials like a valid cc card where Netflix is dumber.

Or are we saying that the whole point in EU is that geo locking is fine only as long as you can easily circumvent it with a plain nord vpn for few bucks at months?

No it is not hypocritical, it is two completely different things. Valve and the listed publishing houses had different prices for the same product inside the EU single market with a geo-lock that meant that it hindered the free movement of services and goods that exists inside the EU single market.

Netflix does no such thing, if you bought your account in Norway you can still access the service in Croatia, or Austria. There is no geo-lock on your account. Yes there is differences in available media depending on where you login to Netflix but that is not Netflix being asshats, that is different IP holders having different rights to media and thus different agreements with Netflix. Aka distribution company X might have the rights to show Y in Norway while company Z have those rights in Croatia and if only one of them have decided to make an agreement with Netflix then ofc Netflix is forbidden from showing that content in one of those areas or Netflix would be found guilty of copyright infringement. And there is draconian law allowing EU to force a single company to have the rights to the entirety of the EU, such things are handled by each local country.

Had Ubisoft had the rights to Mass Effect in Germany and Warner the rights to it in Austria then both could have sold the same game in Steam with different prices and with geo-locking and it would have been legal, but that is not what happened.

Quoting: Craggles086What is wrong with setting a price at a level that is affordable to people in a lower economic block / region.

Something that is available to everyone in the UK or France and Germany is only available to the wealthy in the Baltic states?

I thought the EU was a democracy?

Or am I reading this wrong..

Yep, think I read it wrong. :)

No your thinking is wrong here, not your reading. There exists zero laws in EU against you having different prices in different regions of the EU. If you live here you already know that since there is no EU mandated price for tomatoes across every single member state and every single store. Valve and the game publishers are completely free to sell games cheaper in say the Baltics, what they are not allowed to do is block a person from Germany that bought the game in the Baltics to install his game in Germany.

It's hypocritical man. You're just fixated with explaining to me the law which I already do (and I know is not Netflix fault, at least for the catalog, the different pricing is their fault). And you're ignoring the practical effect, the so called "ideal principle" that is held for a certain economical category but not for another.

It's just a law that prohibits geolocking to Video games IP holders but allows it for music, video and press rights holder benefits.

It defends consumer rights in one case, private interests in another. It's as simple as that.

No I didn't explain the law to you, I explained that movies and tv-shows have their rights divided onto different companies in different regions and that this is different from how e.g games are licensed. So this is not hypocritical at all, just a difference in how they are licensed.

And your examples are not geo-locked, purchase X in country Y and you can still unlock it in country Z which is something that you couldn't do with the video games. What you are after is the EU turning into some massive federal institution forcing every single store to sell every single item that exists on the planet, so I don't think that you have thought this through.

This is completely apples to oranges.