Valve officially confirm a new version of 'Steam Play' which includes a modified version of Wine

Quoting: GuestI just find it odd how people are so willing to give credit to Valve for things that others have done instead. Give credit to both, I say.

No argument here, that's exactly what I did, thanked both developers and Valve who helped that effort.


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 August 2018 at 3:47 am UTC

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: Alm888

Quoting: stretch611Consumers are more likely to be ignorant of the lawsuit…

Precisely!

Quoting: stretch611…and even if they know about it they are more than likely to side with Valve…

Guess what will happen when Steam refuses to launch after the Windows™ Update? My bet they will run towards Microsoft® and Valve® with their sticks and stones and demands to "fix it back". And what happens next? Microsoft® won't budge and Valve will be unable to do anything.

If the US were the only significant venue that existed, you might be right. Valve would sue in the EU. And China, probably. The EU courts have a LOT more teeth with respect to this kind of anticompetitive behaviour, and would right now probably gleefully nuke MS just as a side amuse-bouche to the trade war.

Here's my thoughts - if Valve thought that Microsoft actually had a legal case that Valve couldn't handle, GabeN wouldn't have ordered real money dropped on it, for going on two years now, and currently looking to continue indefinitely. I promise you that Valve's legal people have already looked at this and cleared it.

Second, I don't think that Linux will ever overtake Windows. Never have. But I'm of the opinion that it never has to. It only has to get big enough to be a viable escape route for the select few that decide to go the more difficult route. We have a GOOD chance of overtaking Apple now. I really think we do. It will take a decade, but it will happen. Linux only has to be the second biggest and we still get the AAA titles, the creative suites, Fusion360, etc. We'll be large enough to be catered to like the Apple cult. That's all we need.


Last edited by jarhead_h on 23 August 2018 at 3:52 am UTC

Quoting: F.UltraIf I where Feral I would negotiate the license sooner than today and do a same day release by using the proton wrapper (for the games where Proton works) and then release the native port with full performance and support later. That way they will not loose sales with this change while still being able to produce a proper native port later.

Yep, makes perfect sense for porters to do that. In fact some already did exactly that in the past first using Wine, and then releasing a better performing port (Icculus for Dear Esther if I remember correctly).


Last edited by Shmerl on 23 August 2018 at 3:55 am UTC

I am thinking about to create a new steam account just for Proton games...
The idea of playing Bioshock or Dishonored again, knowing that they will be counted as games sold on Linux, is a tempting idea.

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: mirowell I am not pessimistic about this, surely it will do lots and lots of good.
I am just afraid that too many people will blame "linux" for the less performance and more bugs, not understanding that this is not a native build, that there is dx->vulkan translation and .dll emulation aka at least one additional layer which makes things slower and more buggy.

That is a point, actually one of the most solid "con" points I've seen. Something like this happened with the Steam Machines only it was about bad ports.

This is why you have to enable non-whitelist games in your settings, and then it warns you that it is unsupported. Even then, there will still be a bunch of idiots that blame Linux. Certain things can't be helped, and certain bridges just have to be crossed when you get to them. But what's important right now is that Valve has sprayed some nitrous into the engine and we're just getting going.

Quoting: GuestOh absolutely, it's a good thing, and I don't mean to diminish the work Valve is doing. But Valve isn't doing quite as much as people think - for example, Valve isn't making any game work through wine directly. Well, that can be argued via dxvk, but the point I guess I'm trying to make is that while the impact might be large to users, the effort itself from Valve is actually not equivalent.

Hrm . . . more generally, it's an interesting question of value: Who deserves more kudos, someone who spends a lot of effort for a result that has little impact, or someone who spends little effort for a result that has a lot of impact?
Of course in this case it's more like, group A spend a lot of effort building most of what makes things work and outfit B puts on some finishing touches that allow it to be more broadly and easily used. On the other hand, one might ask if the Wine community on its own had shown many signs of ever turning Wine into something that worked transparently? And my answer would be "no", and that includes Lutris as far as I can tell from some of the other conversations around here in recent months. I even wonder if one problem might have been, if Wine started to Just Work, Codeweavers would be out of a job. An outsider coming and shaking things up may have been more important than we know.

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: GuestSo now that I've had time to think about this news more, I thought I'd try add more discussion points.

Disclaimer: I personally find it odd that people are praising Valve so much here. Valve didn't make wine. Or dxvk. Or actually any of the tools that make this possible. They're just packaging it into Steam.

Let's be clear though, Valve did fund the development of DXVK - so essentially, yes they did make. They've been funding it through all but the first what, two releases?

I meant its original creation - I didn't think Valve was responsible for that?

Just really want to point out that Valve see and fund things that are very useful, and that's not to be underestimated, but I personally dislike the treatment that it's all and entirely Valve doing everything.

Thing is, I feel Valve have been exceptionally clear on the situation. Who people choose to champion is their business.

In the case of DXVK, they couldn't have been clearer even noting when funding started. The point is, while Valve didn't start these projects, it is the one that's pulling them together, funding them and making something bigger out of it. That benefits everyone too, since it's open source.

Oh absolutely, it's a good thing, and I don't mean to diminish the work Valve is doing. But Valve isn't doing quite as much as people think - for example, Valve isn't making any game work through wine directly. Well, that can be argued via dxvk, but the point I guess I'm trying to make is that while the impact might be large to users, the effort itself from Valve is actually not equivalent.

If it makes people feel better I can point out really great things Valve have done (mostly around Vulkan tooling and drivers). But I have to ask: if wine didn't exist, if dxvk didn't exist, would Valve have tried to create either?

Doing something which requires minimal effort and produces maximal results is the very definition of a smart move. If it is done for a greater good, or at least not for just selfish reasons, it is a good thing. What Valve is doing is what only they could have done. No one else can put in Wine in side of steam and do a Quality control of the games that work.

Quoting: GuestI'm sure I will get attacked for this, but here goes. As per usual, disclaimer, my thoughts are my own and not that of VP, etc..

A big issue here is, does Proton really mean "Linux support" ? I don't think it does. Here's why.

When you get a port to Linux, even if it's by a third party, a lot of work has been done to bring that game over to the platform... even if a D3D wrapper has been used etc (i'm not going to go into the "lazy wrapper" argument). The porter is selling you a product that is certified by them to work with Linux, and has official backing of the original developer/publisher. If something doesn't work, or breaks, there is an official support method available. It is someones job to provide help on getting it working, and to fix that if it doesnt.

With Proton, the original developer and/or publisher doesn't have to do anything - that includes support the game running in any way on Linux. It is effectively the same situation has it has been for years with Wine - if it runs, great.. if not, it's not the original dev/publishers problem. They wont support you. As far as they are concerned, even if you bought on Linux, and it shows up on their ticker that it was a Linux sale, you bought a Windows product, and you are not running it via an officially supported method.

Nor will it be Valve's problem. There is no way they are going to provide support for every issue running every game on Linux. Nor will they be any more able to deal with bugs in those games on Proton than the Wine developers are. It could be years, or never, before you get a fix for a particular game not working. Or the next build of Proton could break a previously working game.

So, while I can see how Valve thinks this is a good thing for getting games on Linux, and getting gamers over to Linux, it in turn has a big impact to those of us who were bringing games over to Linux officially. I don't see how Proton is going to help us with the big issue of getting publishers interested in Linux as a platform... in fact, I see it doing the opposite.

You're absolutely right, but none of it matters. The question, the only real question, is whether this maneuver (and perhaps other related maneuvers) can actually drive an increase in Linux use. Network effects ultimately rule over the sort of issue you bring up--if Linux has a strong desktop marketshare, publishers will ultimately release on, or want to port to, Linux. Even if there's a solution of sorts through Wine, the sales will be stronger with a real Linux release. If Linux does not have a strong desktop marketshare, publishers will ultimately not release on Linux. Bigger marketshares get paid attention to, smaller marketshares do not.
The only reason desktop/gaming Linux gets as much attention as it does is its very large marketshare in most computing areas other than the desktop. It is a niche gaming/desktop OS, but not a niche OS overall. But that only takes us so far.

Some interesting stuff :)

QuoteFrom Jeremy White at Codeweavers:
"Yesterday, Valve announced a new feature in Steam Play that allows Windows titles to run on the Linux version of Steam using Wine.

We have been working directly with Valve for two years on this effort, and the launch yesterday was one of the most joyful days of my career, for a variety of reasons. First, the personal – my sons both grew up using Linux. My older son graduated from college, got a job, and eventually bought a Windows PC so he could play his favorite games. My younger son is still in college, and he remains a die hard Linux user. Last night, he was able to install and run the few Windows games he craved on his Linux laptop.

Second, the professional – I have long felt that computer games are the key to any successful computer operating system. Sure, you absolutely need to be able to do productive work on your computer, but your heart is not in it until you can play. Without that joy, Linux, and the variety of Linux based operating systems (e.g. SteamOS, ChromeOS) are going to struggle to claim a meaningful share of the market. Valve has been providing amazing support for gaming on Linux for many years now, and we are proud to join them in expanding the range of high quality games that are available to Linux users.

This still remains a long, hard journey, but perhaps this marks the beginning of the mythical Year Of The Linux Desktop.

I hope that Proton brings you as much joy as it has brought me. And now excuse me, I have some, er, testing, to do..."

Oh and i think this would be a good news to get posted :)

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-39654-linux

Quoting: mirooh well, I am really not that happy as most people.

from now on I'm really afraid that too many publishers will use this as an excuse not to provide native linux builds in case it runs "well enough" with proton/wine.

since this is now to be built-in, most people will not have to understand what wine even is, they will take the running binary for granted. hence what is to expect is less performance and continuous direct x instead of opengl or vulkan

this would totally be acceptable for older/legacy titles, but I really think too many will jump on that train that it runs with proton and that there is no need to compile it for linux.
we'll see.

Looks likes this is happening a bunch of people have been requesting a Linux port of City of Brass; the developer finally replied with a link to the announcement of Steam Play.