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If you want things just to work out of the box stay on Windows.
orochi_kyo commented on 23 April 2019 at 1:18 am UTC

Im been using Linux for years, trying different distros and software here and there, the only thing I can say after these years of experience is Linux doesnt work out of the box.

Im really surprised when Liam(the owner of this site) came saying that "Most people only cares their stuff to work" implying he was one of those "who takes what they can where they can", responding to someone who claimed Native is preferred over some compatibility layer like Wine.

The thing is how someone who think that way is actually using Linux? this is a straight fact, Windows works out of the box, something Linux doesnt, no matter the distro you are installing there is always something left out by devs that you have to solve on your own, maybe drivers, your video card, your monitor resolution or even the fact your computer doesnt resolve IPs on your network.

So why? Linux is the extra mile the other 90% of the market doesnt want to do, thats why they stay on Windows or Mac, even most of my customers (Im It) on Mac doesnt even know how to install a printer, because they just want things to work and that doesnt happen, they call me, lol.

I cant go telling people that my lovely Lubuntu installation worked flawlessly , I have to install a lot of stuff to make something simple as changing my IP because default software to manage connections is shit, also install Nautilus because the default file explorer is so damn awful. After one year of having this distro I still run into troubles related to the OS sometimes.

If I would be someone who only cares about "things to work" mindlessly I'll be using Windows, things works there 99.9% of the times, here on Linux is another story.

Why Liam likes Epic Store? dunno, everyone is free of installing whatever they want on their PCs. But this beats me, he should be the first to know that things on Linux doesnt work that easy, we always have to do something else than windows/mac users to make things to work. The fact he received 36 likes confused me, as Linux users do we really forgot how complicated can be things on the penguin OS?

I dont know where I am anymore, maybe I am the only one running into issues with my Linux installations...

tuubi commented on 23 April 2019 at 5:15 am UTC

Liam saying that playing a Windows game or running a Windows-only game store is easy with a Wine-based solution of some sort is obviously compared to not using that particular tool on Linux, not directly compared to running on Windows. If some particular games are more important to you than the OS you run, you might be interested in such a comparison, but for the rest of us, that article would be pointless. This is Gaming on Linux and Liam writes about running games on Linux.

ageres commented on 23 April 2019 at 7:29 am UTC

orochi_kyothis is a straight fact, Windows works out of the box
It sure does (unless it doesn't), but the main problem with Win10 (at least for myself) is that it believes it is smarter than its user. It can start updating any minute preventing you from using your computer. You won't know how much time and internet traffic it would take. In a new build it can replace some driver to a newer one which will not work but the old one won't work either. Look at any Windows-related forums, and most problems there would be like "how to stop Win10 from doing something I don't want."

What doesn't work OOTB in Linux? All you probably need after installing it is newer kernel and/or graphics driver versions. You can write a simple bash script which will that and other things for you. Can you automatize this on Windows?

orochi_kyoI have to install a lot of stuff to make something simple as changing my IP because default software to manage connections is shit, also install Nautilus because the default file explorer is so damn awful. After one year of having this distro I still run into troubles related to the OS sometimes.
Doesn't nm-connection-editor allow you to change IP? And what's wrong with PCManFM? It crashes often but is fast and has all features a FM needs. If you have problems with Lubuntu or LXDE or LXQt, switch to XFCE (Xubuntu) or Cinnamon (Mint). They have higher RAM consumption but look and behave similar.

A PC user should know any OS he is using, let it be Windows or Linux or whatever. But an unexperienced user would probably encounter more problems with Windows than with Linux, like viruses, Win10 kinks, etc.

mirv commented on 23 April 2019 at 9:48 am UTC

orochi_kyoWhy Liam likes Epic Store? dunno, everyone is free of installing whatever they want on their PCs. But this beats me, he should be the first to know that things on Linux doesnt work that easy, we always have to do something else than windows/mac users to make things to work. The fact he received 36 likes confused me, as Linux users do we really forgot how complicated can be things on the penguin OS?

I dont know where I am anymore, maybe I am the only one running into issues with my Linux installations...

Firstly, I've not seen that Liam likes the Epic Store. He does like that there's a way to use the Epic Store under GNU/Linux. That's a celebration of the ingenuity of software developers more than anything else.

Also, don't forget that there used to be horrendous problems with Windows and graphics drivers (and don't get me started on printer drivers). Perhaps there still are issues - I wouldn't know, outside of work I don't use Windows anymore. I do however recall massive problems with bloatware and drivers that I've never had to deal with under GNU/Linux.

Recently I did have a chance to install Ubuntu on a NUC, and actually everything just worked out of the box. I had very little extra to do - and that was limited to non-OS applications (emacs, favourite terminal, that kind of thing). I _never_ had such an easy installation with Windows.
Now, I prefer Gentoo. Yes, there is the odd occasion to jump through a few extra hoops to get something to work as I want it there. That's my choice. I'm going to point out a couple things there however: "as I want it", and "my choice". Not as Microsoft want it, not as others want it, but how I want it. So any comparison really should take that into account.

WorMzy commented on 23 April 2019 at 10:46 am UTC

orochi_kyoThe thing is how someone who think that way is actually using Linux? this is a straight fact, Windows works out of the box, something Linux doesnt, no matter the distro you are installing there is always something left out by devs that you have to solve on your own, maybe drivers, your video card

Last time I installed Windows, I had to install a web browser (or else use Internet Explorer... ), navigate to the Nvidia website, search for my device, download the latest installer, run it, click through all the screens on the installer, opt out of any bundleware/telemetrics, finish the installation, reboot.

On Arch, I just add 'nvidia' to the list of packages I want to install on the new system when I'm installing it. e.g.
pacstrap /mnt base devtools plasma-desktop nvidia
and graphics drivers are present before I even first boot the system. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

HadBabits commented on 23 April 2019 at 11:48 am UTC

QuoteIm really surprised when Liam(the owner of this site) came saying that "Most people only cares their stuff to work" implying he was one of those "who takes what they can where they can",

If you're going to quote someone at least copy/paste what they said, unless he really did write that grammatically poor sentence. Otherwise it will seem like you're misrepresenting their argument, especially when you follow up on that poor quote by saying it implies he's 'one of those'.

QuoteThe thing is how someone who think that way is actually using Linux?

I don't think you're giving Linux enough credit; there's lots of reasons to use it. Safer, open source, free, more customization, less driver hassle, community, etc. It's not just coders, especially now, especially not on this site.

QuoteLinux is the extra mile the other 90% of the market doesnt want to do

...

If I would be someone who only cares about "things to work" mindlessly I'll be using Windows, things works there 99.9% of the times, here on Linux is another story.

And here's a good example: One of the reasons you appear to use Linux is that you find something validating in how challenging it can be to maintain. That's fine I suppose, though I'd try to say it in a way that doesn't sound so superior and martyr-like (I mean, it's just an OS, friend), but it's not why I use it, it's probably not why Liam is using it, and that's fine.

Liam Dawe commented on 23 April 2019 at 11:56 am UTC

Blimey, we sure have attracted some weird people here lately.

Take the elitism and leave it at the door please orochi_kyo.

crt0mega commented on 23 April 2019 at 1:55 pm UTC

I had to deal with two different Windows machines recently, one running Windows 7 and another one with 10. Ootb my ass.

amatai commented on 23 April 2019 at 2:36 pm UTC

Don't see the point, Linux is all about distro, some don't run out of the box (Gentoo and arch for instance) some will, well, depends if you buy it preinstalled or you do the install yourself, but that will for sure be less painful that doing a windows install (which is less than trivial). Windows just can't do (except on a VM with Linux) most of the things I consider a computer should do so it will neither work out of the box nor with fixes.
Linux and Windows are different, Linux won't work out of the box like windows, you can make it behave more windows like but what's the point?
I am not sure about your point (but usually, using "community" version of famous distro does not make for the best experience)

tonR commented on 23 April 2019 at 3:35 pm UTC

IMO, I can say that Linux are emotionally feels easier than ever especially since after Windows 10 first launched in 2015. Everyone knows how messy the Win 10's compability with old software and hardware. I remember in my old workplace, my boss just bought at that time an mid-range Acer 2-in-1 laptop just to try on new Win 10. Long story short, I had spent a week just to find a right driver just to run his personal Lexmark printer for that laptop.

We as Linux users, learned those above and more (for example to compile everything, run a windows program via wine, debug software ourselves even do some of us knows nothing about programming and still had to live with annoying bug, etc etc), in hardest and most painful way.

However since 2010's, thanks to Android and servers. More contributor such as from Big Tech, Silicon corps, Software corps, and more new and old devs; coming to contribute to anything Linux. Which is the reason why emotionally Linux "feels" becoming much easier than ever.

Speaking of me and me alone. I've to admit, I'm kinda spoiled with todays Linux emotionally becoming easier than like 5 years ago when I was started using Linux. I mean I really don't want to remember anymore how hard it was to run Linux back then.

So yeah, I'm kinda spoiled. And maybe some GoL users too... Probably?

p/s: I hope I can explained "the feels" better. But you know, my English vocabularity/grammar is kinda limited and have to rely on Google translate to translate some words with varies accuracy.

Salvatos commented on 23 April 2019 at 3:38 pm UTC

I'm gonna go right ahead and admit that I'm biased and my memory isn't the best, so I'm not going to try and compare the two platforms objectively here, but there are at least a couple of your points that stood out as contrary to my experience here.

orochi_kyothis is a straight fact, Windows works out of the box, something Linux doesnt, no matter the distro you are installing there is always something left out by devs that you have to solve on your own, maybe drivers, your video card, your monitor resolution or even the fact your computer doesnt resolve IPs on your network.
I have rarely needed to mess with that sort of thing on a fresh install of the more user-friendly distros. I've had nightmares trying to update graphics drivers in the past, but as far as working out of the box, I've had more issues with Windows XP not being able to connect to the Internet by default and struggling to find drivers for that without the ability to use my computer to get them.

orochi_kyoI have to install a lot of stuff to make something simple as changing my IP because default software to manage connections is shit, also install Nautilus because the default file explorer is so damn awful.

If I would be someone who only cares about "things to work" mindlessly I'll be using Windows, things works there 99.9% of the times, here on Linux is another story.
I distinctly remember how every peripheral is accompanied by a CD to install Windows drivers before you can do anything with them. Last time I installed a printer for a Windows-using friend, her computer froze during the driver installation and had to be hard-rebooted. Meanwhile, most of the devices I plug into my Linux work immediately, be it a keyboard, a mouse, a tablet, a controller or a printer (the downside being that there just isn't a driver for one of my scanners). I also don't need to wait for the OS to "recognize" my USB sticks before loading them up.

There are absolutely hassles on Linux, including many that I wouldn't entrust the average user with, but many of them are related to customization that Windows doesn't even offer, like the choice of a file explorer in your example, and that the average user probably wouldn't even think to change regardless of how practical they find the defaults. I'm pretty sure I would get strange looks if I asked my friends whether they'd like to use a different Internet configuration manager.

I'm not willing to say that one is better than the other in this aspect because it depends on your hardware, distro and needs/preferences, but it's definitely not all automagical on Windows either.

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