I hope they grow, and in DRM free fashion as well. With Humble Bundle I see more and more DRMed bundles coming out. Which is not a good sign. They still make their DRM-free bundles, like that last with the Bard's Tale, but they become a minority within all their regular and weekly sales.

True, HumbleBundle lost its way a bit lately. It's great for Windows users to get more top-titles, but from a Linux perspective - well, I haven't even bookmarked them anymore.

With DRM, I increasingly think we should focus more on the developers themselves. A lot of them are selling DRM-free. Maybe GOL even wants to feature those devs and games a bit more.

I say that, because I'm really impressed with the enthusiasm of some of them, how they announce their Linux support, mentioning the open source community as a major motvation and help to get it done.
For example [this](http://www.salvationprophecy.com/index.php/2013/05/06/506/), which is a nice contrast to the reason I'm so royally pissed at GOG. Same problems, different reaction.
Maybe we should stop hunting ghosts while there are so many people directly at the source which we had at "we'll help you test and debug".

I do not think that GoL has deficient coverage of these devs - we give them their due. Besides, any game I review was played with a DRM free release, by virtue of the fact that I am the reviewer. ;)

But as I said in another thread, Humble Store as a mechanism for providing DRM free content has become an even greater force for good when it comes promoting DRM free games than the Humble Bundles are now, which is a bit strange since it was never supposed to be the advocacy part of the organization. It is a great outlet for primarily Steam based developers to put out a DRM free side build, while Desura is better for those who want a Steam like framework but can not or will not utilize Steam, either due to it being unacceptable or inaccessible to them. 

Honestly, it's up to the developer/publisher. If they want DRM, they'll use it. As said above I don't think steam is DRM. 

I've got much bigger things to worry about than Valve spying into what kinds of games I like.

Which is a statement which completely ignores most of what was brought up in this thread, but whatever. :|

Quoting: Quote from HamishWhich is a statement which completely ignores most of what was brought up in this thread, but whatever. :|

What honestly do you want? To convince the world that DRM is bad? We all know it is, but nothing will change. Not everyone is willing not to play/watch/use things that use DRM. Steam is now more popular than Xbox Live, and DRM free stores won't be able to compete on the AAA level if the publishers want DRM. 

Then again, the world as I know it never existed without DRM. I was never able to buy a piece of software and actually "own it." With the world of copyright laws and patent battles, the definition of ownership has changed, and that's what I accept.

As I've said before, If you don't like it, don't use it. Which seems to be just fine for you, and I support that. 

n30p1r4t3: You can of course decide whether to use Steam or not, but I think you ignored the thread above when you said "I don't think steam is DRM". This is not a useful statement, since above it was explained in detail why Steam is DRMed on different levels. If you have another definition of DRM, then you should probably elaborate what it is, to contribute something useful to the discussion.

The argument about competition is not only false, it contains quite a dangerous notion, which implies that distributors should bend to any crazy demands which come from the publishers. The same logic is used by Netflix to explain why they really really have to (no doubt have to) push all this DRM junk into the HTML standard. This is bunk. They don't have to. GOG showed that they can be successful, competitive and show crazy publishers to the door. They either come without DRM, or they can get lost.

This is where the theoretical and the practical parts of the issue collide.

To you n30p1r4t3, it isn't DRM because it doesn't restrict you in your freedom in any practical way, right?.

Personally I think you miss the point here. The importance of freedom-rights derives not from their concrete practical implementation. It's about having the option to practice a freedom if you wanted to.

To just say "Meh, I don't care, I don't need this freedom too often so I just accept it being taken away" is quite problematic because it is always a slippery slope.

But still, I can see how Steam isn't exactly our worst problem on this field. One might think of Android and Ubuntu being way more dangerous developments because they move from free to unfree whereas Steam has started to take the opposite direction.

Quoting: Quote from CaldazarBut still, I can see how Steam isn't exactly our worst problem on this field. One might think of Android and Ubuntu being way more dangerous developments because they move from free to unfree whereas Steam has started to take the opposite direction.

That's what I mean. There are worse examples. Steam doesn't hinder me in anyway.

Quoting: Quote from n30p1r4t3Then again, the world as I know it never existed without DRM. I was never able to buy a piece of software and actually "own it." With the world of copyright laws and patent battles, the definition of ownership has changed, and that's what I accept.

Then you have lived in a very small self contained world. I grew up playing games that did not spy on me, did not need to be tied into some external server to run, and placed no restrictions on the redistribution of a legally purchased copy. I have not even been on this planet for two decades, so I am not talking about some idyllic past, but even ten years ago such things were still quite common on PCs. Furthermore, the fact that we are still arguing the point proves it has not changed yet, and the fact I am still gaming under those terms shows that things can still be done to keep it that way.

Quoting: Quote from Shmerln30p1r4t3: You can of course decide whether to use Steam or not, but I think you ignored the thread above when you said "I don't think steam is DRM". This is not a useful statement, since above it was explained in detail why Steam is DRMed on different levels. If you have another definition of DRM, then you should probably elaborate what it is, to contribute something useful to the discussion.

Exactly what I was getting at.

Quoting: Quote from n30p1r4t3That's what I mean. There are worse examples. Steam doesn't hinder me in anyway.

Yes, there are worse examples. That does not absolve a fault, whether you feel it hinders you or not.

It's sad, but that basically means you'll never play all these new AAA games coming to Linux. Can you honestly do that?

It's not like we are talking about some important life opportunities lost, or serious moral dilemmas here. It's entertainment, you know. One can easily filter out DRMed dishes from the menu. And it's the matter of principles and priorities. I simply don't care about games with DRM. Whether they are AAA or not is irrelevant.

I also don't really understand why big budget games are supposed to be more afflicted by DRM than small budget ones, unless by AAA you mean funded by legacy publishers, vs. indie funded by independent developers themselves. Legacy publishes have indeed something wrong with their heads (as most of the legacy entertainment industry), that why they use DRM. Developers usually are more sensible people. Luckily, more and more big budget games funded independently emerge, and legacy publishers are losing relevance with emergence of crowdfunding. Self funded studios like CD Projekt Red produce high quality big budget games DRM free. Are those AAA? Budget wise may be, but they are independent and don't have DRM sickness. I hope they'll get to paying attention to Linux at some point with their Cyberpunk 2077 and Witcher 3.

Here actually Valve does a positive thing. They are trying to change the perception of reluctant developers who say "Linux has no market". That's probably the best thing which comes out of Valve's Linux efforts.

Quoting: Quote from n30p1r4t3It's sad, but that basically means you'll never play all these new AAA games coming to Linux. Can you honestly do that?

I look at you with sadness for all that you have missed in your life, as it does seem like a smaller world than what I have been able to experience. The fact that you look at me the same amuses me.

I enjoy my gaming, and do not feel any great loss from my desire to keep it DRM free. But even if I did, it would be paltry compared to so many of the other things that I have been forced to deny myself, by choice or by fate.

At least with gaming, like so much else in my life, I can take pleasure in taking the road less travelled.

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlHere actually Valve does a positive thing. They are trying to change the perception of reluctant developers who say "Linux has no market". That's probably the best thing which comes out of Valve's Linux efforts.

It should be remembered that when I criticize Valve I criticize them for their faults, not for their strengths. Here is a strength, and I do appreciate it, but just because some good does come out of Steam does not nullify the negative aspects. Mitigate it possibly, but not nullify it, which is why we are still here pointing out these faults, because as long as they exist they do need to be recognized.

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from n30p1r4t3It's sad, but that basically means you'll never play all these new AAA games coming to Linux. Can you honestly do that?

I look at you with sadness for all that you have missed in your life, as it does seem like a smaller world than what I have been able to experience. The fact that you look at me the same amuses me.

I'm not missing anything in my life? If you want to miss out on games that's one thing, but how am I missing anything from life? Because I choose to appease the powers that be and play DRM'ed games my life is somehow lesser? 
I'm eighteen years old. I'm ignorant as fuck, I know this. There's a lot of things I haven't learned yet. But I don't like my life is defined by my decisions regarding gaming. If there's a game that looks fun and has DRM, so be it. Please explain if I interpreted this incorrectly. 

It is not your choices that make me think so - it is the fact that you were shocked to find that others did not make the same ones that you did, or that it was even an option.

Quoting: Quote from HamishIt is not your choices that make me think so - it is the fact that you were shocked to find that others did not make the same ones that you did, or that it was even an option.

I just couldn't do it. I'm not surprised other people don't feel the same, but to me that option seems difficult in today's world.

But then I live in a different world than you do. That is what I feel you have missed, the ability to see such things.

At any rate, this is getting rather cryptic and a tad off topic.

Yeah. It's fine we disagree. I play the new Metro, and you do not. The world will not end. Have a goodnight Hamish.

Same to you.

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlYou might accept it, but those who don't use Steam can't accept such lock-in and lack of choice. I'd say amongst the Linux crowd, there are in general more of those who care to avoid DRM and therefore don't use Steam either. The situation is indeed similar to requiring Windows to play and saying "so what, everyone should have Windows". If we want truly Linux gaming, we don't need Steam-only attached to it. One of the issues with Steam is that it's huge. So it has disproportionate influence, not unlike Windows vs other OSes as well. When that influence causes good things (pushing Linux as platform for gaming) - good, but when it cases bad things, they are amplified as well (DRM, lock-in etc.). That's why more competition amongst distributors is very needed, and GOG is probably the only strong contender at present, since it's second biggest after Steam.

But those that don't use Steam have less choice, so you are accepting a lack of choice. I have the same choices as you, plus Steam.

And it's not the same as needing Windows to play. Windows is an OS, Steam is not. Your and my distro will continue regardless of Steam. I do accept your point about Steam having disproportionate influence though but I will qualify that by, as I said previously, saying many games on Steam are DRM free (I can run them without Steam), so it is not being enforced by Steam but by the game devs. Maybe you should crusade against them instead.

At the end of the day nobody likes DRM but some of us really have no problem with Steam. You do, so be it. Happy gaming :)