Oh god, yes. Politics have become such a shit show. As always I try to stay happily in the middle, but so many people I talk to go to either extreme, and it isn't even that they want to vite for someone because they think they will do a good job. But they vote for someone who isn't the guy/party they hate. I am just waiting for it all to come to a head at this point....

Some work as (unpaid?) Windows shills. Just ignore them, they don't deserve any attention.

Yeah it annoys me to no end too. I've started emailing developers more than asking on Steam or Twitter, as too many people hijack my posts to start arguing about Windows or Proton, it's just not a good look. Frustrating when I tweet to a developer, have a chat and someone comes along and says "just use Proton!" - that's starting to really bug me.

yeah one of them is my Cousin which usually tries to convince me to install windows for blabla windows only game to play with and then if i do he just basicly stops playing that game and bullying that game after 1-2 weeks of gameplay.

beyond these. i want to buy neuralink and plant that chip into thats trolls head then install minimal ubuntu version and have some fun.
i will pay for all the job for "Linux Users Sake."

Sadly Linux-phobia is really a big problem.
I even hear bad words about linux from people who should know better, like software engineers, free-time programmers etc.

But it's not limited to Linux, in general people tend to want only monopolies in every aspect of their life nowadays (Amazon, Facebook, Steam, Netflix, Uber, Airbnb etc.) and if you use an alternative then you "make things complicated" in their eyes.
They make things complicated by supporting wannabe-monopolies all the time and giving them power.

Last edited by dr_jekyll on 29 Sep 2020 at 2:21 pm UTC

Quoting: dr_jekyllSadly Linux-phobia is really a big problem.
I even hear bad words about linux from people who should know better, like software engineers, free-time programmers etc.

But it's not limited to Linux, in general people tend to want only monopolies in every aspect of their life nowadays (Amazon, Facebook, Steam, Netflix, Uber, Airbnb etc.) and if you use an alternative then you "make things complicated" in their eyes.
They make things complicated by supporting wannabe-monopolies all the time and giving them power.

A good example of this. Someone I know keeps saying I'd like Apple devices, insists I should use Door Dash instead of Postmates for food delivery, etc.

I have always supported the underdog (just the way I am) and I for 100% sure hate lock in of any kind, so no, I would never like an Apple device. I didn't even like how much they try to push you into logging into their iCloud. Even Windows isn't so in your face about using One Drive!

Some companies are of the opinion that you and your data should belong to them, and you should be happy that they provide such a service to you!

The only one of the big companies I haven't had huge issues with is probably Amazon. And while they have had history of not paying their people well, or other things that make their employees unhappy, it isn't like they've been using sweat shops (at least that we know of), and they provide a great service in getting packages to my front door quickly. I think there is a great reason that Amazon is successful. Google is successful because of luck of the draw and advertisements, which I've never been comfortable with, as I hate advertisements... One of the reasons I'd never sign up and pay for something like YouTube Red or Hulu.

Hell, I still refuse to sign up separately to HBO Max, because I think HBO and Amazon should come to an agreement as having everything integrated through Amazon Prime is much better than having to pay X amount of different services.

But back to trolls, yeah I don't think any of them are paid. I actually watched a commentary video about another video... where the original video was a grown adult male that was upset (to the point where he seemed close to bursting out into tears) that the PC was getting ports of some of the games that were previously exclusive to the PS4 (like Horizon: Zero Dawn). Because SOMEHOW having games be available to more people is a terrible thing! Oh no! I mean it isn't like the PC even competes with the consoles, that's one thing I've never understood... The only way they even compete at all is for the developer's cash. Exclusives to me make absolutely NO sense from either a developer or consumer point of view, it is only advantageous for the maker of that particular platform. No one else benefits from it. Not even the publisher does, unless the platform maker gives them a giant dump of money, and that is only the initial profit. Granted, if a publisher has any doubt on the success of a game, selling it to be an exclusive for that initial bonus is a great idea. People from that platform will flock to it for a 'this is better than what you have' to other platform owners. They basically feed the 'war'.

Exclusives are a funny thing, and just means the game will eventually either be unplayable, or work on a PC via emulation anyhow. :P

Arguably, Linux is not successful because there's no exclusive software for it, meaning you can do everything you can on Linux on other platforms so there's no reason to use Linux (from a functional point of view, I'm not talking about freedom, privacy, etc because the general public doesn't care about those).

Arguably, Apple is the most privacy-minded company there is right now. You buy expensive hardware from them and they make their money from that and not from gathering and selling your data. They are also not a monopoly in any market, Google is bigger in smartphones and obvs MS is bigger in OS. Let's not confuse monopoly with having control one's own devices.

Apple and Google are getting bad press right now because of the shit Epic has been stirring up that they shouldn't have control over their own platforms. I see value in the argument that a smartphone is just like a computer and should be treated like one, I also see value in it being a closed platform, where users have limited capabilities in exchange for security and peace of mind. Much like gaming consoles, perhaps. Should Sony and MS and Nintendo allow users to install their own software on them, including competitive stores? And if so, should they offer support and warranty if users do that?

Perhaps there's place for both types of devices in the market. It's just too bad for smartphones you only have the choice of locked-down chaperone Apple and spyware Google.

Quoting: slaapliedjeBut back to trolls, yeah I don't think any of them are paid. I actually watched a commentary video about another video... where the original video was a grown adult male that was upset (to the point where he seemed close to bursting out into tears) that the PC was getting ports of some of the games that were previously exclusive to the PS4 (like Horizon: Zero Dawn). Because SOMEHOW having games be available to more people is a terrible thing! Oh no! I mean it isn't like the PC even competes with the consoles, that's one thing I've never understood...

<rant>
These people are simple consumers, brainless, fanboys. It's the same thing about Apple you don't understand either. ^^
It's like they think: Playstation is better than Xbox, the console looks better, the gamepad is better, the games are better!", they don't care about other people can't buy/play that game on their platform of choice.
They want to be, sort of, part of the "better" camp, but better in what? Not freedom for sure...
You know, I think we all know some fanboys, either for video games, cars, computers, clothes, food...
There is always someone saying that what he use/buy is better but in the same time doesn't know shit and refuse to learn, they just consume.
And the idea that they could be slaves, brainwashed... is unbearable for them, I saw that many times...
In fact with many of these big companies It's just like Stockholm syndrome...
</rant>

Well, if you spend money on something you are more than likely going to defend it.

And of course, you may do nothing, buy nothing and “consume” nothing, that’s not much of a life, really. People make amazing things and one of the good sides of civilisation is we have a fair amount of free time we can spend on entertainment and don’t have to slave in a mine 16 hours a day. People find what works best for them and go with it. Yes, many a time that doesn’t involve much thought.

Quoting: damarrinThey are also not a monopoly in any market

I quite disagree that Apple should get a free pass. Anti-trust should have blasted them years ago for not allowing alternative stores and banning competing browser engines in their own. Even if they aren't literally a monopoly (that's a very edge case anyway), they have enough market influence to harm progress and competition by messing up Web standards because they can (see above about the browsers ban). Apple are one of the most disgusting anti-competitive lock-in driven companies around. I'd say they even outdid MS from the '90s in this regard.

Even though I don't have any respect for Epic's own anti-competitive practices, I hope they win this case over Apple and the later will get the anti-trust treatment they deserve.

Last edited by Shmerl on 29 Sep 2020 at 9:44 pm UTC

Exercising control over your own platform has nothing to do with monopoly. Plenty of companies do this in the general computing space. Your TV maker does that with your TV, your cable provider does that with your TV box, and so does your router maker/internet provider with your router.

Monopoly is a dominant position in a market. Apple have that nowhere.

Last edited by damarrin on 29 Sep 2020 at 8:34 pm UTC

Also, the thing I’m personally outraged about is MS’s monopoly in the PC OS market, which is an actual monopoly in the legal sense and not some made up one, and that no one in power deems it fit to do anything about, since practically everyone on the planet, including all the lawmakers, wants it to remain so.

Quoting: damarrinExercising control over your own platform has nothing to do with monopoly. Plenty of companies do this in the general computing space. Your TV maker does that with your TV, your cable provider does that with your TV box, and so does your router maker/internet provider with your router.

Monopoly is a dominant position in a market. Apple have that nowhere.

They do within their own 'mall'. Imagine you are in a small town. There is only one place that has a shopping center. To open your own shop there, it is required that you not only pay your lease for the property/building, but the owner of the shopping center gets a cut of every sale you make as well.
That is Apple in a nutshell. Android at least has some back alley stores that are not muscled away, they just require customers to travel out back to shop with them.
For Android, it is as if the option is there, they just don't get prime real estate, and a reputation for "not google". Apple, you simply have no choice. You want to lice in AppleTown, you have to play by their rules or you get kicked out into the cold.

You’ve never seen a shopping centre lease contract, have you? Your rent increases with your sales.

You can jailbreak your Apple device too, if you’re so inclined. And no matter what you do with your Android phone, no matter how many 3rd party stores and apps you install on it, it’ll continue reporting everything you do to Google to fuel their marketing machine.

Also, you don’t have to live in Apple town. They’re a minority player in the market, Google is bigger and you can get by without Apple. You’d only be unable to if they were a monopoly, which they aren’t.

And yes, if you want to live there, you have to live by their rules. I fail to see the problem here.

Quoting: damarrinApple and Google are getting bad press right now because of the shit Epic has been stirring up that they shouldn't have control over their own platforms. I see value in the argument that a smartphone is just like a computer and should be treated like one, I also see value in it being a closed platform, where users have limited capabilities in exchange for security and peace of mind. Much like gaming consoles, perhaps. Should Sony and MS and Nintendo allow users to install their own software on them, including competitive stores? And if so, should they offer support and warranty if users do that?

At least in the countries I know, there is no warranty in case of modification, so this is just another non-sense argument to support apple's position.

Also the point of security is nonsense.
Because you still could allow users to choose.
If they want the company's "secure" store, they can have it, but if they want something else they shouldn't be denied.

All in all the point of this is much bigger than you think.
As one economic professor pointed out years ago, we are going to see a future of service-economics, if lawmakers don't act.
This means: In the end no one will be able to buy products anymore; that they own, that they can modify and repair and use forever.
Instead you will only be able to pay for services, like subscriptions and then use (former) "products" in the limited way the companies want.

I don't want to live in this future.

Quoting: damarrinExercising control over your own platform has nothing to do with monopoly. Plenty of companies do this in the general computing space. Your TV maker does that with your TV, your cable provider does that with your TV box, and so does your router maker/internet provider with your router.

Monopoly is a dominant position in a market. Apple have that nowhere.

I think a lot of ISP do that, but not all, at least in France we have the [FFDN](https://www.ffdn.org/en). :heart:

Quoting: damarrinExercising control over your own platform has nothing to do with monopoly.

Read about what's the point of competition laws. If Apple was some company with 5 users, no one would care what they exercise. However Apple have power over Web standards development due to having a huge market share (it doesn't have to be a monopoly to have such power). And not allowing competing browsers means they can dictate their garbage terms and everyone has to accept that. And they did it more than once, sabotaging touch events, DASH, WebGPU and other efforts that could go much better if not for Apple making a mess. For me it's clearly a case for anti-trust to handle.

The best solution is to fine Apple until they allow other stores which won't have any of their garbage restrictions, like ban on other browsers. Anti-trust frying them is very long overdue. So I hope Epic win and this disgusting thing will be explicitly prevented.

Last edited by Shmerl on 29 Sep 2020 at 9:52 pm UTC

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: damarrinExercising control over your own platform has nothing to do with monopoly.

Read about what's the point of competition laws. If Apple was some company with 5 users, no one would care what they exercise. However Apple have power over Web standards development due to having a huge market share (it doesn't have to be a monopoly to have such power). And not allowing competing browsers means they can dictate their garbage terms and everyone has to accept that. And they did it more than once, sabotaging touch events, DASH, WebGPU and other efforts that could go much better if not for Apple making a mess. For me it's clearly a case for anti-trust to handle.

The best solution is to fine Apple until they allow other stores which won't have any of their garbage restrictions, like ban on other browsers. Anti-trust frying them is very long overdue. So I hope Epic win and this disgusting thing will be explicitly prevented.

Is a lot of that due to store lockin, or just greed over what APIs they allow to be used? I mean nkt allowing alternative kwyboards and browsers is a garbage thing to do to your users, unless you can convince them that some engineers ALWAYS know what is best for EVERY user / circumstance...
Disgusting is the correct word for it.

By no means do I think Google is an angel in this, and I think they are only a tad better than Apple, but at least you basically know where Google stands. With Apple it is like that girl you thought was really hot, but then you started talking to her and she didn't have a lot going on upstairs...and had a limited imagination when it came to everything in life and was a spoiled brat to boot.

Google is more like the college roomate who kept drawing a dick on your face when you passed out at the party.

Quoting: slaapliedjeIs a lot of that due to store lockin, or just greed over what APIs they allow to be used? I mean nkt allowing alternative kwyboards and browsers is a garbage thing to do to your users, unless you can convince them that some engineers ALWAYS know what is best for EVERY user / circumstance...
Disgusting is the correct word for it.

By banning all other browsers under pretense that "they aren't secure", Apple can force developers who don't want to ignore their users (which is a significant user base), to use their proprietary APIs. That's the leverage they have over the whole industry and it's indeed disgusting and harmful to progress. Something anti-trust laws were explicitly designed to prevent but Apple managed to get away with it for years.

Finally someone is going after them about it (Epic), though in a different context, but it's really about the same issue. I.e. in more general terms, setting whatever bogus terms in their store and not allowing any other stores Apple have a lot of bad anti-competitive leverage over various industries (Web is just one major example) who don't want to ignore their user base.

Last edited by Shmerl on 30 Sep 2020 at 1:03 am UTC