Not really. If such kind of issue occurs, I'd simply use Windows version in Wine.

What games do you have problem?

The only game that I do have problem is The Bard's Tale. This game native version does run but has some serious bugs also the proton version does not run, so I really can't progress the game. Unfortunately I had not played the game much when it was new to be sure if the bugs always existed.

For some older games like Trine just using steam runtime as compatibility is enough (by default I am always running steam-native). Other games had always problems, so the old distribution is completely irrelevant.

I am really annoyed that people have the a very wrong idea about compatibility. We need to promote Linux native API's Like SDL, Vulkan and OpenGL. Games should never-ever by default be dependent to specific versions of Libraries and especially never be dependent to a desktop environment. If you are independent of such things then you have an ELF that will just run on any distro now and to the future.

Valve did two very wrong things that are still haunting the linux gaming. Steam runtime is just the wrong way doing things. Fortunately we have a way out and Valve should adopt this (The way out is using steam-native and pushing the runtime bullshit to compatibility) The other wrong thing is client being 32bit. Linux and Mac clients should had been 64bit from the beginning. Apple "forced" Valve to do the right thing. Valve needs to do the right thing on Linux even if there is nobody that can force them to do it.

Fortunately Valve also did the what really had to be done and this is going forward with SDL (and also many other good things). So even if Valve made some serious mistakes we really need to be grateful to Valve that Linux is a gaming platform.

Last edited by lucinos on 28 Jun 2023 at 2:50 am UTC

Bard's Tale is one example. Some other examples are 32-bit games compiled without big files support, making them crash on large XFS partitions and so on. For example Shadow Tactics: Blade of the Shogun had such issue. This is not a common thing today becasue everyone is making 64-bit games, but for a while a whole ton of games were bugged 32-bit ones, becasue Unity had such bug.

Last edited by Shmerl on 28 Jun 2023 at 3:10 am UTC

No.......

I did do this back in Windows days...... I kept an old XP machine to play old games but it got to much of a hassle to swap machines...... And ive had no luck with duel booting...... So I gave up on that.....

Also I think that Proton/WINE will help to preserve games..... So I dont really see the point myself...... Each to their own though....

Quoting: StoneColdSpiderNo.......

I did do this back in Windows days...... I kept an old XP machine to play old games but it got to much of a hassle to swap machines...... And ive had no luck with duel booting...... So I gave up on that.....

I remember that I was using two versions of Windows from 2003 to 2004 to solve these issues. I had been using Windows at home for over a year, and it was easy even back then.

Quoting: ShmerlNot really. If such kind of issue occurs, I'd simply use Windows version in Wine.

Quoting: StoneColdSpiderAlso I think that Proton/WINE will help to preserve games..... So I dont really see the point myself...... Each to their own though....

Below are some examples.
Probably, I could run many of them on these modern machines if I find time to do it.

Mandrake 7.2 - Exile 3, Würstelstand
Suse 9.3 - Mohaa, Raptor, Reel Deal Slots, Inner worlds
Suse 10.1 - Universal boxing manager, Odyssey By Car, Nuts & Scrap
PCLinuxOS 2010 - Runesoft, LGP, Loki
Ubuntu 22.04 - current games

On the other hand, I don't care about Wine if something doesn't work.
I have a few older machines, so I can always come back to solve these issues later. All four computers are connected to the same monitor, so I got used to the idea of playing games for Linux in a lazy way. It gives me the same experience. Companies are doing incredible job when they are porting games to Linux. I have low expectations about Linux, and I try to respect the time and money they invested.

Windows users build machines with DOS or Windows 98, and Mac users upgrade old Power PC/Intel Macs to play games. I found it fun upgrading the old PC from GeForce 4 MX to GeForce 7300 GT.

Why should we care about preserving games for the other operating systems?

I noticed that Grid Autosport doesn't run on Ubuntu 22.04. I will install something from 2016 because there is a difference between Linux in 2016 and 2023.

Why Steam users can't solve these issues in the same way instead of using Proton?

People can waste hours trying to troubleshoot a game or temporarily use the old Linux distribution. In this case, they can enjoy playing a specific game and find a solution for the new distribution when they find the time.

Last edited by gbudny on 28 Jun 2023 at 11:55 am UTC

No, I spend far less time ticking the compatibility box on Steam to run them with Proton. Or Wine if not on Steam. Less hassle, less time wasted, more time gaming.

Quoting: Liam DaweNo, I spend far less time ticking the compatibility box on Steam to run them with Proton. Or Wine if not on Steam. Less hassle, less time wasted, more time gaming.

You can always keep the older Linux distribution and when you have it. I'm pretty sure that a minute of booting the older system won't take too much of your time.

I'm finding it enjoyable to run every game for Linux that I didn't play like it was in the past.

Last edited by gbudny on 28 Jun 2023 at 12:09 pm UTC

Quoting: gbudny

Quoting: Liam DaweNo, I spend far less time ticking the compatibility box on Steam to run them with Proton. Or Wine if not on Steam. Less hassle, less time wasted, more time gaming.

You can always keep the older Linux distribution and when you have it. I'm pretty sure that the time of booting the older system won't take too much of your time.

I'm finding it enjoyable to run every game for Linux that I didn't play like it was in the past.

Just seems like a waste of time for me. Why dual-boot, when I can just click a few buttons on the same system I am on and save space too?

Quoting: Liam DaweJust seems like a waste of time for me. Why dual-boot, when I can just click a few buttons on the same system I am on and save space too?

A minute is a waste of your time?

Windows and Mac users dual-boot their operating systems to sort out these issues. Amiga users do it with AmigaOS and MorphOS.

Why do we always think that Linux is a better operating system? Maybe it is a terrible operating system.

Maybe we should think about older Linux distributions like tools. We need a specific Linux distribution to run an old game and enjoy it.

In this case, we don't have to worry about the lack of patches or poor technical support. It matters what is displayed on the same monitor. If it's a native game for Linux, it's a better choice for me.

It's a much healthy way of thinking to give up and accept this operating system as it's. Maybe it was a hopeless choice, and when we get stuck with these games. It probably doesn't hurt to use native games in a lazy way.

We can always find time to troubleshoot some native games in the distant future. I don't know when it will happen with some of them.

Last edited by gbudny on 28 Jun 2023 at 12:40 pm UTC

Quoting: gbudnyWhy should we care about preserving games for the other operating systems?

For me, it's because I like those games. :tongue: I don't care what OS they are or aren't for, I just care about the games themselves and being able to play them how I choose.

Quoting: gbudnyWhy Steam users can't solve these issues in the same way instead of using Proton?

People can waste hours trying to troubleshoot a game or temporarily use the old Linux distribution. In this case, they can enjoy playing a specific game and find a solution for the new distribution when they find the time.

There's a principle called [Occam's Razor](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Occams-razor), which states that "Plurality should not be posited without necessity.". It's sometimes [alternately explained](https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/occams-razor/) as "The simplest answer is the one most likely to be correct.".

For the everyday user just looking to game, there are simply far less hoops to jump through to just click a menu and then click a checkbox in the Steam client, than there are to set up, maintain, and switch back and forth between a current OS and a separate outdated one whenever a problem with a game might occur.

That said, I fully understand the appeal of this for real-hardware retrocomputing if that's anyone's jam, but I don't really understand going through that hassle for relatively recent or current stuff. In those cases, I'd rather just stick to one system myself. :smile:

What was said above, basically. I have literally no actual need to maintain some random older Linux distribution, that takes up extra space and effort when I can just hit play with Proton / Wine. With Proton / Wine you also often get a better experience than with much older Native releases that are no longer updated.

There's audio issues, controller support, multi-monitor issues etc etc etc that often Proton / Wine will just be better than an old Native release. For me, it's not just "rebooting takes 1 minute" - it's everything around it. Time adds up on all the things.

Last edited by GamingOnLinux Bot on 28 Jun 2023 at 1:01 pm UTC

Quoting: gbudnyQuoting: Liam Dawe
Just seems like a waste of time for me. Why dual-boot, when I can just click a few buttons on the same system I am on and save space too?

A minute is a waste of your time?

Cause that's not true. It take more than a minute to find an older version of Linux. Then to install it. Then to configure it. Then to troubleshoot it because it's so old it has trouble with modern hardware.

Then you can dual boot. That part takes a minute. And most of us don't have the luxury of have 4 gaming systems from different eras to play with.

Compared to steam, which literally takes minutes (depending on download speeds), yeah using Steam/Proton is faster... And unlike an ancient unsupported OS, is actually still maintained to work on hardware made in the last decade.

Comparability layers and emulation are made to avoid having to use older distros and hardware for a reason. This is the reason.

Plus I would add, and for me it's nearly the most important thing, when I play a game on a computer it's not the same as if I was playing on a console.
I mean I do a lot of things on my computer, I nearly never just strictly play a game but do other things too, like listening to my music, check my emails etc.
I think that's what I could think about "waste of time" mentioned by Liam. I can't have all my software/configuration across many computers with an old distro, I prefer to have all of that on one computer so I can avoid many reboots, or worse have many computers started at the same time.

Last edited by Cyril on 28 Jun 2023 at 1:56 pm UTC

I like older X clients, older versions of some software that I prefer, but I don't compromise on the guts. If I don't like something's behaviour, I may find a way to change or revert it though to make it cooperate again. Something you can't exactly do with commercial games, you have to change everything ELSE around it for workarounds.

Quite the opposite, really. I'm more bleeding edge than Arch and I've taken over hundreds of packages. For some things I use my own PKGBUILDs to roll up git builds of things etc. I also may stick with an older version of something and then build around it (all its dependents etc.) though, in the event of subtle breakage. I can't use ffmpeg 6.0, for example, because it breaks something at the back end for me. (gstreamer's gst-libav interface)

Games that can't be made to work anymore can go pound salt. If it won't work through Proton either, it's shitware anyway. That's not common, it's more likely that games that didn't work with Proton last time I tried them years ago, do now.

By the way, if it's just a library .soname change (or same soname but doesn't work for whatever reason... some projects never bump those) that's broken your native game, you can drop compatible libraries in the game directory (most games have wrapper scripts that set LD_LIBRARY_PATH) or put them in another location and use LD_LIBRARY_PATH yourself.

I might do things like that to keep an old native game working, for example I still have the same UT2004 directory and I dropped in a compatible libstdc++.so.5 and stuff to keep it running.

Quoting: PenglingFor me, it's because I like those games. :tongue: I don't care what OS they are or aren't for, I just care about the games themselves and being able to play them how I choose.

In this case, Windows is the better choice for games created for this operating system. There are many classic games that I like and want to see on Steam or GOG.

I had this feeling that Linux users don't pay too much attention to the history and games for Linux released before Steam. Why?

Quoting: PenglingThere's a principle called [Occam's Razor](https://www.britannica.com/topic/Occams-razor), which states that "Plurality should not be posited without necessity.". It's sometimes [alternately explained](https://www.dictionary.com/e/pop-culture/occams-razor/) as "The simplest answer is the one most likely to be correct.".

What is so complicated about dual-booting?

It's a simple and lazy solution to many complicated issues. You can report a bug if a game is supported and continue your day playing it until someone releases a patch. It's less stressful than installing and spending hours if you encounter an issue.

Quoting: PenglingFor the everyday user just looking to game, there are simply far less hoops to jump through to just click a menu and then click a checkbox in the Steam client, than there are to set up, maintain, and switch back and forth between a current OS and a separate outdated one whenever a problem with a game might occur.

Current Linux distributions are easy to install on modern computers. I don't encourage anyone to use it for anything other than unsupported games. I treat them like a game console.

I hate when companies abandon old games and stop selling them. Switching can help you postpone a problem and enjoy a game almost immediately when you notice the issue. I can't say it about troubleshooting games on Linux.

We don't have a community that builds applications for old operating systems. Interestingly, Mac and Windows users have a community that creates applications for old operating systems.

Quoting: Penglingbut I don't really understand going through that hassle for relatively recent or current stuff. In those cases, I'd rather just stick to one system myself. :smile:

These issues are going to happen sooner or later with some games. I prefer to have a system where I can play a game even if a Linux distribution is old.

Quoting: Liam DaweWhat was said above, basically. I have literally no actual need to maintain some random older Linux distribution, that takes up extra space and effort when I can just hit play with Proton / Wine. With Proton / Wine you also often get a better experience than with much older Native releases that are no longer updated.

I don't maintain them.

I use them only to play games that I have issues that I don't want to sort out for hours. Sometimes, I postpone finding solutions for months, and it's a healthy way of dealing with these issues.

I tried to solve issues with the beta version of the Medal of Honor for years. I decided to buy an old computer to play it, which was easy snd cheap (80 PLN - 20$). Strangely enough, I played it many times in the past, and I got used to missing sounds in this game. Then, I get even more lazy with this approach.

Quoting: Liam DaweThere's audio issues,

Can you be more specific?

Quoting: Liam Dawecontroller support,

Unfortunately, I don't use them because I prefer to use a keyboard and mouse. I had a horrible experience with some multimedia keyboards.
In this case, I suspect that I will have similar problems with controllers.

Quoting: Liam Dawemulti-monitor issues

I read so many times that I switch from a 27-inch monitor to a ex-display 55-inch monitor. I was expecting problems with even two monitors on Linux.

It's always obvious to me that simple solutions on Linux are always better if they aren't too time-consuming. In 2005 I bought Sound Blaster Live 5.1 because I didn't want to create scripts for games that used OSS.

Last edited by gbudny on 28 Jun 2023 at 8:57 pm UTC

Quoting: gbudnyWe don't have a community that builds applications for old operating systems. Interestingly, Mac and Windows users have a community that creates applications for old operating systems.

But seriously, at the beginning, what is the reason to use old OS (except fun or nostalgia)?
There is a reason why a lot of people stop using an old OS and just upgrade: security.
At one point you don't get updates anymore, I hope you don't connect your old machines/systems on Internet...
But in the world of Windows and macOS, upgrade often means "pay again": a new license or a new computer when the old one is not officially "compatible" (we know it's often commercial bullshit thought).
On Linux, you don't pay for each upgrade... most of the time you don't have "compatibility" issues between software and hardware, it works just fine and you can keep your computer more longer, mostly because the goal is not to sell you another thing...
I don't think there is really good reason to not upgrade, except... exceptions what would just need to be fixed.
I think if you have to use an old OS, there is a problem somewhere.

Quoting: gbudnyIn this case, Windows is the better choice for games created for this operating system.

Sorry, but no, it isn't. I don't want to use Windows, and stopped using it for many good reasons.

Quoting: gbudnyI had this feeling that Linux users don't pay too much attention to the history and games for Linux released before Steam. Why?

There's no point in asking me, I'm afraid - though I've used Linux for a long time, I didn't start gaming on it until a year-and-a-half ago when I left consoles behind due to cumulative unsatisfactory experiences in that sector. :tongue: I always had a console alongside my PC, prior to that.

That said, I'm aware of the history, and I'd imagine most are.

Quoting: gbudnyWhat is so complicated about dual-booting?

It's a simple and lazy solution to many complicated issues. You can report a bug if a game is supported and continue your day playing it until someone releases a patch. It's less stressful than installing and spending hours if you encounter an issue.

Nothing is complicated about dual-booting, but for those who have zero need to do it and who can solve the problem with literally three clicks, it's an additional hassle that takes up a lot more time than it needs to.

Aside from that, I'll just quote denyasis here, as their post about this point was so eloquent that I'm not going to reinvent the wheel;

Quoting: denyasisIt take more than a minute to find an older version of Linux. Then to install it. Then to configure it. Then to troubleshoot it because it's so old it has trouble with modern hardware.

Then you can dual boot. That part takes a minute. And most of us don't have the luxury of have 4 gaming systems from different eras to play with.

This is the issue for most, and why I mentioned Occam's Razor. :wink:

Quoting: gbudnyI don't encourage anyone to use it for anything other than unsupported games. I treat them like a game console.

That's fair, but for most people it's a bigger ask. :wink:

Quoting: gbudnyI hate when companies abandon old games and stop selling them.

Very true, and I don't like it either. However, this has always happened regardless of OS, and not all OSes have the tools that we're lucky enough to have for it.

Quoting: gbudnySwitching can help you postpone a problem and enjoy a game almost immediately when you notice the issue. I can't say it about troubleshooting games on Linux.

Clicking three times in the Steam client can, too, though. :smile:

Quoting: gbudnyThese issues are going to happen sooner or later with some games. I prefer to have a system where I can play a game even if a Linux distribution is old.

And that's what great about Linux - we have a lot of options to play how we want to. :grin:

In my own personal experience, that's more wide-ranging on Linux today than on any other OS I've ever used, and when we look at the bigger picture, it's easy to see what Valve sees in it as a gaming platform.

To sum it up. Wine handles old (Windows) ABIs on any modern Linux without the need to run some old distro. This allows playing almost any old Windows games on your current distro.

Linux itself doesn't handle old (native) ABIs as well as Wine does for Windows ones. So you are getting the issue of old native games breaking. If someone will develop Wine-like backwards compatibility layer for Linux itself - it would solve such problem. But it's a complicated task and so far no one cared especially with focus on gaming related ABIs. So Wine just is and will be way ahead in that for preserving playability of old games.

Last edited by Shmerl on 29 Jun 2023 at 4:43 am UTC

Quoting: ShmerlLinux itself doesn't handle old (native) ABIs as well

The way you put it is very misleading. Linux kernel never broke ABI. The problem is that you do not rely only on the kernel but also on other libraries and what is part of a linux system? Nobody knows. The usual suspects breaking old software are the desktop environments. But also relying on a library that may be abandoned on the future or not giving a shit about the software that rely on it is what causes problems. (saying doesn't handle old ABIs is misleading because that was never meant to be an ABI, it was just some random dependency)

Although Linux is still not well defined as a platform, this is actually getting better. SDL + Vulkan/OpenGL pretty much corresponds to DirectX. Alsa->PulseAudio->Pipewire is the sound system, Systemd (whether people like it or not) is the init system and Desktop Portals are the interface to desktop environment resources. All these we can now safely rely as part of the Linux Platform.

Last edited by lucinos on 29 Jun 2023 at 9:17 pm UTC