Quoting: Lightkey

Quoting: randylBut the "walled garden" part is total rubbish. Proton is completely open source and can be used by anyone. Valve has probably done more to push forward WINE development than any other single company. They have dumped a lot of money into Proton and WINE devs are completely free to push those changes upstream.

More than CodeWeavers, the company that Valve hired to make those improvements and where the core WINE developers are working at for the past two and a half decades? :huh:

Yeah, fair enough. I really should have qualified that and intended that to mean since "Proton" has been a thing. I would say in the most recent few years Valve has been the company to sink the most money and development effort into the compat layer. But I'm going on my take from news articles and such along with observing how accelerated development has gone compared to the previous decade. Even like you point out, Valve paid Codeweavers to work on it.

But I don't want that point to take away all the effort, time, and money everyone else has put into Windows game compatibility. There has been a lot of commendable effort by others before and after Proton. The point I was trying to make is firstly that Proton is open source so anyone can use it and it isn't a walled garden. And secondly to point out that Valve has put a tremendous amount of money and effort into the tech since launching Proton and promoting gaming on Linux.

In short I object to the idea that Valve is promoting Windows gaming with Proton as I see their effort to make the Windows gaming platform less relevant and exclusive; and the idea that Valve is for some inexplicable reason trying to screw Linux gamers over.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: tuubiI doubt it had any lasting effect on anything though. Linux is doing fine. And I would never have bought and enjoyed those games if the ports didn't exist, so it's a bit hard to really agree with this line of thought.

Oh as did I. And nobody remembers the travesty around that anymore.

But if those "ports" were the alternative way forward for gaming on Linux, there is no end to the appreciation we should feel for Steam Play/proton. To put it mildly.

Appreciation? Valve are doing this for Valve, to lock more into Steam, and build their own little walled garden. My appreciation goes to the open source projects that Valve are using to do that, not to Valve for doing normal business.

Valve are actively discouraging developers from creating GNU/Linux native versions. They are pushing for Windows gaming, and want to adjust GNU/Linux to run _Windows_ games. Yes it gives you plenty of Windows games to play, but be wary of the sacrifice to get it.

Of course Valve is doing it for Valve just like any other company that puts money into open source. Do you think Red Hat or Ubuntu does it "for the people"? Even hobbyist distros do it for themselves and other people can benefit if they can use the software.

But the "walled garden" part is total rubbish. Proton is completely open source and can be used by anyone. Valve has probably done more to push forward WINE development than any other single company. They have dumped a lot of money into Proton and WINE devs are completely free to push those changes upstream.

Valve have contributed a lot to Linux gaming adoption not just through Proton, but through SLR because games don't "work on Linux". They mostly work on Ubuntu and everyone else has to figure out how to make those work. Without Valve "Linux Gaming" would still be back in the stone ages. There likely would not be a Stadia (and that marvelous tech stack).

If Valve was pushing Windows they would have made their Deck run on Windows not an Arch derivative. If Valve was pushing Windows they wouldn't have spent millions on building Proton and Steam Linux Runtimes for what are arguably an insignificant monetary demographic.

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Quoting: Mal

Quoting: randylThe only big drawback to the current base Xbox controller for Windows is that it uses AA batteries instead of a self-contained rechargeable.

Odd. That's the main reason why I don't like ds.

Yeah, it's my chief complaint about the controller. It does great on battery life and I love the feel and it has lasted a long time with a lot of use, but the battery thing bugs me. The Xbox Elite controller has a self-contained rechargeable battery. It's also $150 - $170. hahaha.

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Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: randyl

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: randylBatman_Arkham_Asylum_Game_of_the_Year_Edition/) works on Windows 11. I just tested it.

But it proves how random things are, even on Windows. The issue my son got, with this games, is largely documented on support sites... He is not alone. On my end, just turning on ProtonGE makes the game run. We have same spec computers (except for the GPU, both Nvidia though).

That's true for Linux users as well. A native game may or may not work on a given distro which is why Valve offers SLR (the Ubuntu container) because what Linux compat often means is just Ubuntu support. Proton doesn't work consistently either as you point out. You needed to install a Glorious Eggroll compile of Proton to make things work as intended. Gaming has always been like this since the days of DOS, Amiga, and OS2 before Windows and Linux.

You said, someone should test whether these things work on Win10/11 and then submitted a game you said doesn't work on Windows. I tested it, since someone curious asked, and it works for me. You know, like when you can't compile an app at work and the author shrugs and says, "It works on my machine."

It proves my point nonetheless... 100% compatibility on Windows doesn't exist. That's all I was saying. I never said it was better on Linux. Batman AA was just an example that I know is problematic for many Windows users. It works for you? Great for you!

If 90% of games are working on Linux being native or with Proton, it's probably in the same range than Windows games on Windows. We are not even talking about the fact that the Steam Deck is a dedicated hardware that will probably have more compatibility than any PC and it's millions of possible hardware combinations (software + hardware).

Windows users don't think games have 100% compatibility so I'm not sure where you got the idea that is a thing. Games age and stop working on newer OS versions just like Linux. I can tell you with absolute certainty that more games work on Windows overall and the experience is smoother, but there are some edge cases where they do work better through Proton. I don't think that's a great comparison or standard for Linux land to try and live up to. What's important is that the experience on Linux distros both through Proton and natively are satisfying. And most importantly for the Deck is that the games that are rated to play well do that, and I think they will.

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Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: randylBatman_Arkham_Asylum_Game_of_the_Year_Edition/) works on Windows 11. I just tested it.

But it proves how random things are, even on Windows. The issue my son got, with this games, is largely documented on support sites... He is not alone. On my end, just turning on ProtonGE makes the game run. We have same spec computers (except for the GPU, both Nvidia though).

That's true for Linux users as well. A native game may or may not work on a given distro which is why Valve offers SLR (the Ubuntu container) because what Linux compat often means is just Ubuntu support. Proton doesn't work consistently either as you point out. You needed to install a Glorious Eggroll compile of Proton to make things work as intended. Gaming has always been like this since the days of DOS, Amiga, and OS2 before Windows and Linux.

You said, someone should test whether these things work on Win10/11 and then submitted a game you said doesn't work on Windows. I tested it, since someone curious asked, and it works for me. You know, like when you can't compile an app at work and the author shrugs and says, "It works on my machine."

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: damarrinFor some reason, Valve decided to take these from Playstation and they’re L1,R2 and so on.

The Xbox names are stupid (WTF is a "bumper?"), but it's mostly because there are five of those buttons on each side. You wouldn't want "right bumper," "right other bumper," "right other other bumper," and so on.

Quoting: 3zekielAnd considering the outcry every time a game dev removes the ps button when they port to PC, I doubt I am the only one who prefers dualshock. I also don't think x360 is all that popular ? Maybe in US, but worldwide I highly doubt it. Maybe it had some extra usage due to being easier to setup at some point, but I don't think it was out of love.

PlayStation controller support on Windows has historically been quite bad, and Microsoft did a big push for the Xbox controller being a "Windows standard," so developers that think PC = Windows also tend to think that PC controller = Xbox.

On Windows the schema is RB/RT and LB/LT (button/trigger) when I play games through Xbox GamePass. Maybe bumper is a legacy naming convention but that isn't how it's presented to the user in a game or how users talk about the hardware. Then there is LS/RS (left and right stick), the Plus Pad or D-Pad, and the A, X, Y, B buttons. Naming conventions may seem odd if they aren't used, but terminology becomes familiar quickly.

Sony hasn't historically provided very good DS4 support on Windows. They use a proprietary wireless technology so a dongle is required to connect that way. However, for several years now Sony has supported DS4 via Bluetooth, but some proprietary features don't work as they do natively on PS consoles, USB wired, or with a USB dongle. When I used a DS4 on Windows I usually played with it wired to get full functionality.

When Microsoft made their base controller work on Windows through Bluetooth I started using it. It's a decent controller for cheap. The only big drawback to the current base Xbox controller for Windows is that it uses AA batteries instead of a self-contained rechargeable.

On Steam it isn't too hard to figure out the button configuration for a game. The A,X,Y,B buttons are typically color coded so it makes learning the layout easy. I play games on GamePass that originally released for PlayStation and using the controller isn't confusing at all.

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Quoting: MohandevirBefore worrying about the 100% compatibility mark, I would try to get the same tests on Windows 10-11 with Windows games... It might be lower than 90%.

Ex: My son was never able to run Batman Arkham Asylum on Windows... I did with Proton.

I mean... 100% support doesn't exist, even on Windows, so... :huh:

FYI Batman: Arkham Asylum GOTY [External Link] works on Windows 11. I just tested it.

Very cool article and approach Valve is taking in my opinion. 100% compat was never realistic and I don't think they should have ever implied that. Being able to check my Steam Library for compatibility is a big plus. I look forward to that.

Overall, I think this could be a big positive for gaming period in addition to mainstreaming Linux gaming.

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Betrayal at Krondor is one of my all time favorite RPGs and I can definitely see the influence here. It felt quite new and cutting edge, at the time, to freely wander the map in Midkemia in 3D. That wasn't something most RPGs offered at the time.

By the way Liam, the like button for the article is hidden with uBlock origin enabled. I disabled it for the site and it's probably just my restrictive default configuration, but I thought I'd pass it along in case you were unaware and it mattered.
Vivaldi 4.2.2406.48 (Stable channel) (64-bit); uBLock 1.37.2 with annoyance filters enabled. I disabled the adblocker for the site.

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Quoting: dpanterI wish them luck, but my reaction was also along the lines of another one?! :unsure:

I kind of get where you're coming from, but this seems different to me. For one thing I don't feel like I really have a lot of choice when it comes to Gnome 3. And I don't know how to say this without insulting other DEs, but to me only Gnome and KDE are robust enough to even consider.

I love Fedora but have come to loathe Gnome. I like a lot about what it could offer, but the team and their decisions and need to control their users experience drive me bonkers. I want Gnome to look and behave how I want it to not how they, the Gnome team, want me to. I finally gave up on them because nearly every Gnome update broke Dash to Panel, the extension that let me make my DE look and feel how I like.

This is a great development for System 76 users in my opinion. It doesn't solve the Gnome control freak issue for anyone else, but it's good for S76.

I've been waiting for KDE to actually work well with Nvidia, and it's coming along, if not very slowly. Fortunately at work we don't even use desktop environments for the servers. We remote in. I know I could roll Arch and not have to deal with any DE, but I don't want to put that amount of effort into building and maintaining my desktop.

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: randyl

Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: randylThe contract between Valve and the publishers/developers may have clauses or stipulations which give an "MFN" status and that has to be determined during the hearing.

Aaaah! MFN is a term used to qualify a situation... They want to convince the court that some part of Valve's contract acts like a MFN. Is that so?

Edit: For the record... Don't know why I haven't tought about that in the first place:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_favoured_nation [External Link]

This seems to be so and more so that if their contract has an MFN clause that it harms both consumers and developers. If you have the time to listen to the YouTube video that was posted earlier the lawyer explains what this is and how it could apply to Valve. He goes over the highlights of the law suit and explains what it means legally and what it might mean for Valve or the plaintiff.

I think it's probably worth a watch, and I actually started . . . but it's a frigging hour, man!

It is very long. It went by pretty quick as he kept on point. I put it on while I ran queries and did some extraction work.

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