Quoting: BielFPs

Quoting: 3zekielThe issue has nothing to do with proprietary or open source.

I didn't said that the problem was the driver being proprietary, I said the problem is the said driver not supporting GBM.

Indeed, but I was referring the original question "Is it impossible for my graphics card vendor to do full Wayland support while keeping its driver closed?"

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Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: 3zekielI mean other OSes, at least ChromeOS and Android was their argument. I did not say their argument is good either. And if anything, issue is they did not say anything for years and then came and said "we support that and only that"

AFAIK, no other OS uses EGLStream (I'm sure Android doesn't at least). Nvidia presented EGLStream as a OS independent solution, but the reality is that it was designed with the sole purpose of adapting to their needs. If Nvidia would want to improve GBM they would sit down with other wayland devs and start discussing a new standard that also works for Mesa drivers.

The big problem here is that Nvidia doesn't want to do a step back or rework in their driver design.

Actually, it was in the pipe at some point, that 3rd, merged better API, but nothing came out of it. And yes, I agree Nvidia does not want to rework their driver, and that is the core of the issue I guess. Also, I understand it is not a technically better all around or anything like that. So yeah... We simply have to deal with it because it's Nvidia.
But I guess changing back must be non trivial for them, otherwise it would be done.

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Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: 3zekielNvidia already has wayland support, using standard egl extenstions. Rest of the Linux world uses custom (GBM) extensions. Then it becomes a question on who is right or wrong in this story. Nvidia says everyone else uses eglstream, Linux world says yes, but GBM has been there for quite some time.

What do you mean by "everyone"? Nvidia is the only one that adopted EGLStreams, not to mention that they are the ones that created this "standard" that only they implement.

I mean other OSes, at least ChromeOS and Android was their argument. I did not say their argument is good either. And if anything, issue is they did not say anything for years and then came and said "we support that and only that"

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[quote=BielFPs]

Quoting: Eike

Quoting: EikeIs it impossible for my graphics card vendor to do full Wayland support while keeping its driver closed?

Presuming is Nvidia you're talking about, right now the answer is yes because Nvidia proprietary drivers can't run GBM.

The issue has nothing to do with proprietary or open source. Support for Wayland has been here for ages. Support for Xwayland is, as you see, coming to full feature. Is purely technical choices (and lack of discussions when they should have happened...).

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Quoting: EikeI didn't look into Wayland yet, but XWayland is not the real thing, right?
Is it impossible for my graphics card vendor to do full Wayland support while keeping its driver closed?

What do you mean but "the real thing" ? If you ask whether a full X server will run, answer is no.
Nvidia already has wayland support, using standard egl extenstions. Rest of the Linux world uses custom (GBM) extensions. Then it becomes a question on who is right or wrong in this story. Nvidia says everyone else uses eglstream, Linux world says yes, but GBM has been there for quite some time. Both are kinda right. And neither solution is technically perfect either. Discussion to converge on a third solution that would be better for everyone have begun quite some time ago, but never converged I think ... That being said, code divergence is nothing dramatic here, there's not much difference between supporting one or the other.

As for Xwayland support, there has been some patch to make it kinda work for some time already, but it is not real good... I guess this is the "real" patch, the one that will completely and cleanly work. Red Hat has been spearheading full (x)Wayland support with Nvidia since at least 2 or 3 Fedora releases, so I guess this time it should be all in shape for Fedora 34. Also, the fact that red hat is dropping X server maintenance probably accelerated the movement from Nvidia, since only red hat still maintained it, meaning they basically declared the "time of death" by deciding to do that. And so, it will be Wayland or Wayland pretty soon now.

So it is completely possible for Nvidia to support wayland with closed source driver. It was just 1/ not wanting to support not standard egl stuff (right or wrong) 2/ probably thinking that as long as X still lived, why bother.

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Stupid question: will nvidia setting work also ?
Because right now it is a bit of a sore sport, I tried already with patches from Adam Jackson, which kinda worked - albeit not wonderfully - but I had no Nvidia settings, and no Gsync.

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Quoting: aokamiBut my point is, it's off-topic here, it's at best irrelevant.

It's definitely politics and feel free to take this elsewhere.

Quite true, and good idea to take it elsewhere...
@Liam GrammarOnLinux when ? :)

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Quoting: scaine

Ubuntu was too safe, not particularly exciting and I didn't want another normal distro

Isn't this weird? I can really relate to it, but I don't really understand what drives it. It's the fundamental force behind distro-hopping I think.

I'm mostly settled on Mint, but there's still an itch that there might be something better out there. Certainly, Mint's biggest problem is the lack of an upgrade path. You basically have to re-install every two years, simple as that. Hardly ideal. But otherwise, it's amazing. So why am I constantly on the lookout for another distro...? :grin:

I think it's also that after having distro hoped a little, you find that no distro fits 100% of what you want. After a bit more than 15 years hoping around, I have settled on Fedora for the base... But use half a dozen VMs, guess that's the final stage of hoping. It is actually quite a nice way to use your computer, but needs quite a bit of RAM. Right now I personnaly have a virtual Fedora Silverblue - mostly to try, it is very fun btw -, Centos stream (for all these crap which require 10 years old packets but still have not completely outdated experience) and deepin (because... because ?)running in parallel ... + My Fedora host of course (used for steam and co directly)

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: 3zekiel(...)

On the fun side, in French we use something similar for gender neutrality with "ils/eux" which is equivalent to they/them. But now there are some discussions since originally, it is the masculine version of the pronoun. Long time ago it seems we would use the masculine or feminine depending to either who was speaking or the gender of the first noun in a compound subject.
Now we have multiple new usages being discussed either write stuff like il(s)/elle(s), and put all possible suffixes at the end of each nouns. Or (in my opinion) prettier ones like "iel" which would be the gender neutral noun and actually sounds "good" as French.
(...)

Erm... i speak French since now 44 years and nobody except a few militants care or know about gender neutrality. It is not even a public debate. It is a fad for some microcosms. The sole time i saw "iel" it was on a conspiracy-theory hippy blog on the internet.

What is less uncommon, i admit, is the use of what some call "écriture inclusive" which consists of writing "patient.e.s" instead of the grammatically correct "patients et patientes" for example. But again the sole people i have seen using this were some academics of my alma mater (which had always had a bizarre left wing zoo, it is mostly folkloric) My very hippy ex-biking association, a few green politicians and a few writers on poor quality left wing media. It is very marginal.

It has been rejected by both French and Belgian Academies for being useless and too cumbersome. And French is rather an "Academic" language.

What I also see is more acknowledgement of the role of women in professions that are usually male dominated. But no need of butchering grammar for that. :happy:

Ah I agree it is not yet "common" as in you see it everywhere. For "iel" I did see it on articles here and there, and I personally find it much better than the il(s)/elle(s) everywhere or the "écriture inclusive" (which is what I called writing every possible suffixes at the end of the noun). I do personally dislike the "écriture inclusive" as it is very hard for me to read, and even after having read quite few texts written that way, it still makes me stop and have to re read many words, which is cumbersome. And completely defeat the purpose of a language to begin with, as it is supposed to be well, "natural" to read your mother tongue, not complex as hell.
And while it's true that French is very academic, I still think it will evolve slightly on gender neutrality. It might come also from being younger, but I do hear more and more persons around me, especially those who are fresh out of university, talking about this kind of stuff.
Now, I agree it is clearly not yet a massive debate in every families :)

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Quoting: slaapliedjeWonder if he's considered porting / releasing on the AtariVCS? Most of those games would run wonderfully on the system, and would probably sell quite well right now as the system is starved for some games! And porting efforts would consist of literally just getting it on the store...

Isn't the AtariVCS standard Linux in the end ? I guess one could just install Steam or pull from GOG no ?

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