Quoting: jensYes, I agree. Personally I don't buy any windows games anymore but I occasionally use dosbox for my nostalgic moments which is basically similar.

I've bought lots of games on GOG that I never played when they were new for whatever reason (e.g. wanted to play but DRM'ed or just never heard about them or so), or re-bought just to have DRM-free copies so I don't have to bother with potentially dodgy cracks any more. I spend a lot more on Linux games though, and buy more Linux games than Windows games.

Quoting: jensThe question then is how old is "old", 10 years would be my point of balance ;). Stated differently, wine shouldn't compete with Feral or Aspyr titles, that would hurt the Linux market.

I mainly go by price... if it's cheap enough for me to consider it & isn't very old, then it either didn't cost much in the first place or it isn't very good :p

As for Feral or Aspyr titles, those generally aren't on GOG anyway. If they were, I'd have bought most of them at release (and then later bought further copies as well for giveaways etc) like I've done with many of the other Linux games that are available on GOG.

Quoting: jensBut you do know that it is kind of hypocrite if you are advocating Linux everywhere but would buy lets say Tomb Raider 2013 for Windows when there is a Linux port? I know Feral/Aspyr games are not on your favorite distribution channel, but would your Linux support end when it concerns a title like this?
Note that I didn't say that you did this ;)

In cases where a game is available DRM-free and has a Linux version but does not have a DRM-free Linux release I generally won't buy it at all. Although if the official Linux version is just a Wine wrapper or so anyway then I might get the DRM-free version since I prefer setting up Wine myself, but it'll have to be cheap.

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Quoting: jensAbout wine, that one is a double-edged sword. I'm using wine for two applications (no games) and I appreciate that it works. That said, contrary to your views I think wine seriously hurts the Linux position for gaming, simply because wine gaming counts as windows gaming and does nothing to increase the number of sold game for Linux. Thus it keeps the status quo and makes sure that Linux will stay as a toy only for tech-savy people but no serious OS on the desktop market.

I consider Wine to be crucial to the growth of Linux.

Were it not for Wine I wouldn't be using (and promoting & supporting) Linux right now, but instead would be sticking to Windows 7 and still hoping that ReactOS would become usable soon. I have a library of hundreds of games built up over more than 20 years and switching without Wine would have meant giving all that up, as well as giving up entirely on many newer releases that will never get an official Linux release.

It's obviously a bad thing if Linux users buy new games that don't offer Linux support, but at the same time asking people to just completely abandon such games (along with most of their existing libraries) isn't good either.

I think there is a balance to be struck here though; it's not a problem IMO if people wait & buy such games when they're old & deeply discounted enough (and ideally DRM-free since DRM tends to cause a lot of hassle with Wine, plus getting such games DRM-free at least supports that cause), and save the full/high price purchases for titles that do support Linux. It's basically what I do... my current policy when it comes to buying games is more or less:

• DRM-free and supports Linux = Will consider at full price, if interested. Will also consider for gifting & giveaways.


• DRM-free but doesn't support Linux = Might consider at a low price/deep discount. Might also consider for gifting & giveaways, but only if it runs well in Wine & I make a Wine wrapper for it first.


• DRM'ed but supports Linux = Might consider at a low price/deep discount (will only tolerate Steam in this case, and I buy with the full intention of re-buying if it ever gets a DRM-free release + I like it enough).


• DRM'ed and doesn't support Linux = Worthless. Won't buy but might accept for free (as part of a bundle etc.) and then later try it in Wine with a crack.


• DRM'ed with Denuvo, UPlay, or Origin (or any other DRM scheme I consider to be particularly egregious) = Won't accept even for free; I do not want to risk any of my money going to support them. I've actually gone as far as to avoid buying hardware due to bundling of games using such DRM schemes.

Quoting: jens

Quoting: ShmerlTheir mindset is not something you should evaluate using common sense.

It's actually pretty easy, it's just about making (lots of) money. Really, that's the only motivation. ;)

As Shmerl said... just look at their obsession with things like DRM, even though it's clear by this point that it doesn't help sales even when it is effective at stopping piracy, and actually drives customers away. See also: the push towards a "games as a service" model (and "x as a service" in general), spyware/"telemetry", etc.

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Quoting: g000hI've been considering buying Shadow Warrior 2 (60% off) on GOG, even though it is "for Windows only" (BOO HOO!)

I'm very interested in SW2 as I really liked the first game (and would've bought SW2 full price if it had a Linux version at or close to launch), but at its current pricing 60% off is nowhere near enough for me to risk it in Wine - since it's DRM-free I won't write it off altogether but it needs either an official proper Linux port or 85%+ discount before I'll consider it.

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Quoting: pbIt probably only works for boxed copies. I tried the Warband cd-key from steam (*not* steam key, but cd-key from the product page) and it said it was invalid.

Stalker games don't provide cd-keys via steam at all.

https://www.gog.com/news/breclaim_your_gamesb_drmfree

Warband is for CIS/Russian territories only. As for the STALKER games not getting CD keys on Steam, looking at the comments it seems that some people got keys for them while others didn't.

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I made a Wine wrapper for Deadly Premonition, which is also available via connect atm (or it *was*... seems to have vanished there now for some reason).

There are also some other games you can claim on GOG if you have them elsewhere already, separately from Connect: https://www.gog.com/reclaim and https://www.gog.com/witcher/backup
(and of these games, I've also made Wine wrappers for the STALKER games and The Witcher

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Quoting: jensYes, but i would say that the whole gaming industry has changed, not just the way how studio/publishers want to make the most out of it. I grew up with Lucasfilm titles ala Monkey Island 1 and Indy 4. While not discrediting the games of this ages (these are still very cool titles), I think you can't compare that with a production like DeuxEx:MD, GTA5 or similar. There is way more money involved and the Inernet changed all classical distribution channels.

Yes, it has changed... not just with DRM in its various incarnations but the other dubious industry practices that have become the norm too.

Quoting: jensI can certainly understand that some shareholders want some kind of control before starting such investments. Note that I'm not saying that DRM is a must, I just want to empathize that more has changed than just the introduction of DRM.

I can understand this as well, but the fact remains that DRM does nothing to help sales (and probably causes a reduction of sales instead, in addition to wasting money on licensing and implementing said DRM and support costs resulting from it). Publishers are slowly learning this, and we're gradually seeing more of the big publishers open up to bringing their newer releases to GOG. As I noted before though, the big problem for Linux games on GOG seems to be the absence of a Linux version of their Galaxy client.

Quoting: jensYes, separate, but not completely separate. If the whole Linux community would reject all DRM solutions you will/would never see Linux ports of AAA games and thus Linux for the Desktop will never reach the mass of people. My strategy would be to not fight all battles at the same time. I would fight first for Linux adoption, that includes the acceptance of some necessary evil like DRM. When that battle is won and Linux is a serious player with a no longer negligible market share you have some tools in your hand to fight DRM ;)

Sure, if the majority of the Linux community rejected DRM it would pose a problem for getting AAA titles but I don't think that's anything to be worried about since the majority will tolerate Steam (it's the only DRM I'll consider tolerating, but it will require a very low price/deep discount though and depend on the game & publisher).

Anyway I've been resisting DRM ever since it became a thing & it's one of the factors behind my decision to move to Linux, so I'm not about to change my position on that... I'll just continue to do what I can to support both Linux and DRM-free releases :)

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Quoting: jensIt's take and give in. I give in on the right to own and in return I get entertaining hours and convenience.

It was the same before, except that now the publisher retains such "ownership" and control. I guess it's not so much a concern if you only play them once & don't care about ever playing them again, but I personally like to replay some of my older games every so often.

Quoting: jensSteam, Netflix or Spotify reduce the time between the wish for entertainment and the actual consumption to a minimum. The number of entertainment hours are theoretically limited, but until now I never reached that limit. When I finish a game I move on and usually don't look back. There is so much more to do ;) As stated: for me time is way more precious than to "own" digital content.

The matter of convenience is exactly the same with GOG or any other DRM-free distributor. You pay the money, download the product and play... the difference is that with DRM the publisher retains control over it when DRM is involved, unless you acquire a crack to remove or bypass the DRM. In this sense DRM-free is more convenient since you don't need to get permission from some third party each time you want to install & play (or don't have to acquire a crack), and there's at least one less possible point of failure.

As it is I have a vast backlog already, even if I only count games with official Linux support; so while there are certain games I'd really like to play (such as DX:MD) I don't feel any pressure to buy them as long as they're encumbered with DRM. As an added bonus, being forced to wait like this means I am much less likely to get burned by the other bad industry practices & eventually get a more complete and more stable experience, and at a much lower cost :) And the money I save by doing this can be put towards supporting the publishers & developers that *do* provide DRM-free releases, as well as funding system upgrades, supporting & promoting Linux in general etc.

Quoting: jensNo, its certainly not an argument to increase sales. But it works the other way around, DRM gives the big publishers the feeling to stay in control. Even if it's just a feeling, this can be a tipping point for a decision in a big company to whether or not to publish to Linux. The long term goal is to get more users to Linux, you need the big boys for that.

I agree that we need more big name titles but as I said before, DRM-free and Linux support are two separate issues and publisher attitudes towards both of them are (slowly) changing for the better. And both need people to show publishers that there is a market for them :)

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Quoting: jens(Though I don't mind at all using the nvidia proprietary driver, it just delivers it terms of support and performance.)

I used an Nvidia GPU in my old system, and up until recently I actually recommended Nvidia GPUs for Linux due to their (at the time) superior drivers. The progress that has been made with AMD's drivers and Mesa over the past couple of years is extremely impressive though, and now both AMD and Nvidia GPUs are good choices for Linux gaming.

Quoting: jensMy time is limited, but when I find the time I prefer the real deal, thus the AAA experience. Linux is a perfect place for indie games, but next to personal preference I think you will need to attract the big boys anyway if you want the masses to adopt/convert to Linux. I hope that everybody here wants Linux to grow.

A lot of what I do is to help Linux grow. I promote Linux on GOG with things like my beginner's guides and my Wine wrappers plus many Linux-focused giveaways. I'm actually running another giveaway right now :)

Quoting: jensThe big boys want one thing only, earn money. For that they need in their views some trusted channels for distribution and some kind of control (or a feeling of control) that everybody pays for their product. This is very unlikely to change.

It *is* changing, but much like Linux adoption the rate of change is slow. GOG are the biggest platform that isn't merely a Steam key distributor and they've been getting more and more big-name titles closer to release (from Kalypso, Deep Silver etc).

Unfortunately the lack of Galaxy client for Linux seems to be the major blocker to getting DRM-free releases of these games for Linux and GOG really ought to do something about that.

Quoting: jens<snip>

There have been many instances where people have been unable to play because the game they want to play needs to authenticate and Steam's servers were down, or their connection was down, or the game's DRM was bugged etc.

There's also the preservation of art/culture aspect (fortunately cracks exist, but it's ridiculous to have to rely on those). There have been cases where content has been altered or removed post-release (e.g. music tracks from GTA: San Andreas), and many cases where publishers have lost the source code and unprotected executables and have resorted to using cracks on their own games.

But for me it's primarily the principle of it. If I buy something, I don't want it to remain under the control of some third party or have to resort to using potentially dodgy cracks to have it the way I want it. I prefer to buy rather than rent... it's the same reason I avoid streaming services and still buy DVDs (which I then immediately rip), as well as the occasional CD if I can't find anywhere that offers a FLAC download.

On top of all that, even if it's successful at stopping piracy for a substantial period of time DRM doesn't actually help sales.

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Quoting: jensYou got my deepest respects if you are really this relaxed ;). I'm a little bit allergic against people that avoid anything like Steam on one side but tend to blame gaming studios for not supporting Linux on the other side. In my opinion you can't have everything, it is taking and giving from both sides.

Rejecting DRM/promoting DRM-free and supporting Linux are separate issues. Although I'd say they're related and that DRM is more likely to be an issue for Linux users than Windows users, as much of the reasoning behind using Linux is the same as (or similar to) that behind insisting on DRM-free software in general (freedom/retaining control, "ownership" etc). I've sent many emails & written letters to publishers for both causes.

It is very difficult to convince the big publishers on both issues though, so it's often a case of having only one or the other rather than both.

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Quoting: jensYou miss a great game and you indirectly support the case that Linux is pointless as a platform for serious (AAA) games.

I've been anti-DRM a *lot* longer than I've used Linux. My principles are actually one of the reasons why I decided to switch to Linux in the first place.

Plus it's not like I need games in order to survive or anything, or that I don't already have a backlog big enough to last me many years... so, having to go without some that are encumbered with anti-features like DRM is unfortunate, but not really that big a deal. If they do end up releasing these games DRM-free then I'll buy them (likely many times over as I only gift DRM-free games & run a lot of Linux giveaways over at GOG's forums), but if not then oh well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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