Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAnd there doesn't seem to be anything else in the wind that would make it worth all the expense of making the AI.

There is another reason it's worth it.
Few entities have the budget to do it.

Uh, yeah, and that makes it worth it how if there's no revenue associated? I was pointing out where the revenue seems to be coming from. You counter that not by pointing out that the stuff is expensive, which just makes the point that they better have some revenue coming in, but by pointing out an alternative source of revenue, and suggesting some reason they'd want that source instead rather than having both. (Except you shouldn't, because I'm right :tongue: )

Sorry. I didn't make my point clear.
Those using my reasoning intend to use their control of a market they already control to be their source of income for it, but want to protect that source of income from competition with deep learning(I realized we might be talking about different things under the same banner).
It's somewhat like buying a lock for your house. Is a lock profitable. It doesn't generate money, but it keeps others from taking what you already possess.

Well, yes, that's certainly part of it. But they're going for the part I mentioned too--I mean, why not? Sure, it could maim the internet goose that lays the golden eggs, but that's not a "next quarter" problem.

That young upstart stealing your market can come as much "next quarter" as next century. The problem isn't all these people with world shocking ideas and skills, but the problem is that even one my exist.
Having said that, I do agree that your reason is probably also on the list of legit reasons to invest in AI for these companies.

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Quoting: such

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: such

Quoting: melkemindInevitably, the "pirates" crack the DRM, so the only people DRM ends up hurting are the paying customers.

That's not quite the case anymore with Denuvo.

A. they just switched away from Denuvo.
B. Denuvo cracks still happen, but you're right it's the strongest I know of(every version of football manager up to 2023 and Hogwards Legacy have fallen).

There's been two people/groups cracking Denuvo that I know of - one was doing football games exclusively, the other has been radio silent for a bit now. Feel free to correct me on that. Still, not many bother with Denuvo.

I'm just saying digital lead us to a reality in which not all DRM gets circumvented eventually, but that narrative is so ingrained in everyone's consciousness that it's becoming actively harmful. We've lost as consumers, a long time ago.

Radio silence in her case is relative.
Produces lots of sound and only sometimes cracks, but you're right Denuvo is quite good at what it does.
Also there're some more "low tech" groups that don't attack the code itself, but some of the weaker license key schemes(Sims crack)
The thing with this harmful mindset is that it's so prevalent, because in mathematical theory it's true(all the relevant information is send to you), but math ignores the law, societal development and language.
The copyright laws combined with language barriers and the abolishing of the harsh technological restrictions on "western hostile" nations are working.
Denuvo had to send multiple people to jail, but it did work the crackers started getting cautious with it.
Also the lack of technology restrictions on "western hostile" countries means that a lot less people in legally accepting environments are interested in cracking nowadays.
Language barriers also play a role. Sometimes large drm cracking scenes based on some general bug have sprung up in nations such as China and survived for a long time without getting noticed for years.

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Quoting: PenglingWe've been discussing this on the forum, and there are several other games known to be afflicted;

Ghost Trick: Phantom Detective
Mega Man Battle Network Legacy Collection Vol. 1 & 2
Mega Man Zero/ZX Legacy Collection
Street Fighter 30th Anniversary Collection
Strider
Resident Evil 5

Moreover, none of these are declared on their Steam pages, which I've seen suggested elsewhere might be in breach of the law in some regions. It annoyed me to learn of this second-hand, to be honest.

My response was to uninstall for the handful of Capcom titles I've got and also remove the Proton files (one of them being the Mega Man Zero/ZX compilation, which, as above, definitely has it), because clearly I can't trust any of them now. I presume that, since Proton is basically a container of sorts, I should have no issues as a result of this? (I've never encountered this before.)

Issues I can't predict, but Proton as a container is misleading.
Proton provides 0 containment on itself and is very clear about that.

They're designed to run in a layer of security called "user space" or as others call it ring 0.
It's the difference between root and everything else(on most systems).
Within this restricted space they're willing to let programs do and whatever they like.

They actively support some forms of debugger detection, file analysis, etc. specifically to support "copy protection".
There was an actual attempt for punk buster it failed, because of an issue even Windows had(Wine just had it a lot more extreme and since punk buster got fixed they already marked it as won't fix).
The reason why malware often fails is, because it wants to run in kernel space and Proton simply doesn't support kernel commands.
The only active protection it can offer is the extra protection flatpak offers compared to

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Quoting: such

Quoting: melkemindInevitably, the "pirates" crack the DRM, so the only people DRM ends up hurting are the paying customers.

That's not quite the case anymore with Denuvo.

A. they just switched away from Denuvo.
B. Denuvo cracks still happen, but you're right it's the strongest I know of(At least every version of football manager up to 2023 and Hogwards Legacy have fallen).

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Quoting: ThibugWhat is even the point of changing the DRM years later when the game has already been pirated and later updates won't matter much?

Ooh.
I know.
A. Denuvo has a strong reputation in the industry, but maintains a subscription model causing developers to often switch away from it when a game becomes less popular.
B. Capcom just had an unfortunate clash with its modder community and wants to beef up its defenses.

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Purple Library GuyAnd there doesn't seem to be anything else in the wind that would make it worth all the expense of making the AI.

There is another reason it's worth it.
Few entities have the budget to do it.

Uh, yeah, and that makes it worth it how if there's no revenue associated? I was pointing out where the revenue seems to be coming from. You counter that not by pointing out that the stuff is expensive, which just makes the point that they better have some revenue coming in, but by pointing out an alternative source of revenue, and suggesting some reason they'd want that source instead rather than having both. (Except you shouldn't, because I'm right :tongue: )

Sorry. I didn't make my point clear.
Those using my reasoning intend to use their control of a market they already control to be their source of income for it, but want to protect that source of income from competition with deep learning(I realized we might be talking about different things under the same banner).
It's somewhat like buying a lock for your house. Is a lock profitable. It doesn't generate money, but it keeps others from taking what you already possess.

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Quoting: GuestMaybe i'm wrong but to me what seems especially funny is how quick they went from 'non-profit' to profit-oriented.

OpenAI has never been non-profit and it still doesn't make any profit(both are true, but it sounds like paradox bear with me).
OpenAI doesn't make any profit in the sense that their expenses vastly exceed their income.
OpenAI isn't a non-profit in the sense that they have always been very clear that they wanted profit. Their biggest investor Bill Gates somewhat muddled the waters, but that isn't OpenAI's fault.

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: LoudTechie

Quoting: Purple Library GuyBut let's not forget that copyright as a concept is recent (unlike, say, murder, or even theft). There was no copyright in the Middle Ages or even the Renaissance.

That depends on your definition of old the printing press and copyright law were introduced in the late middle ages (1400-1500)

There were printing presses for some time before there was copyright.
Wikipedia:
"The British Statute of Anne 1710, full title "An Act for the Encouragement of Learning, by vesting the Copies of Printed Books in the Authors or purchasers of such Copies, during the Times therein mentioned", was the first copyright statute."

I'd say that, as I stated, is past the Middle Ages or even the Renaissance. Maybe not quite capitalism, but certainly starting to head that way. And 1710 did not mark full blown arrival of the copyright regime, when you consider that this is the first such statute, it was very limited compared to later ones, only applied to Britain, and I wouldn't be surprised if it took a while before anyone really started paying attention.

But even if you had been right about that detail, that would still be a rather small smidge of human history and my overall point would remain sound.

The first copyright privilege granted to a publisher was in Venice in 1489 over the work "Rerum venetarum ab urbe condita opus". Certainly back than copyright functioned more like patent in that you had to apply for a copyright instead of getting it automatically.
also 1710 is still older than the US constitution(the oldest constitution still in force) 1787.
Also my statement about it being older than the concept constitution is wrong. That was introduced by Aristotle in 350BC.

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Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: LoudTechieGAAH.
I knew Nintendo was old, but that they predated the modern computer nearly half a century is new to me.

Yeah, Coca-Cola had only existed for three years when Nintendo was founded! :shock: And in some form or another, they've always been connected to entertainment somehow for all that time.

Quoting: LoudTechieThis explains to me how a mere game company managed to amass so much power.
{LoudTechie freezes and their eyes turn black and flashy}

They're actually not a very powerful company and have no real protections in Japan as a result - that's why they have to be so litigious, because basically their IPs are all they have and they're in trouble if they lose their grip on that. There's a really good ~30-minute video-documentary on that here [External Link] - give it a watch. :smile:

I was refering to them controlling their own hardware empire.
The Nintendo consoles.
That having said, it's indeed an interesting watch.

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Quoting: Pengling

Quoting: tuubiWhat are you basing that on? There's limited info available publicly, but seems like the highest selling Switch games published by Nintendo, for example, have reached about 50-60 million copies sold based on Nintendo's own quarterly reports.

Well, they've sold billions since they entered the video games industry - that much is well-recorded [External Link], at least. Last year (projected in February [External Link] and later achieved in May), the Switch's library alone hit the milestone of accounting for 1 billion of the company's lifetime 5.5 billion software units sold.

GAAH.
I knew Nintendo was old, but that they predated the modern computer nearly half a century is new to me.
This explains to me how a mere game company managed to amass so much power.
{LoudTechie freezes and their eyes turn black and flashy}

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