Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: EikeDoesn't that have a heavy connotation of booze? :)

And your point is? :wink:

Despite the wink: "Feierabend" doesn't. :)

Heh. Well, I don't even drink so you'd notice, the joke just seemed to want to be made.

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Quoting: KimyrielleAlso, remember when Loki's native ports stopped working on newer Linux machines because of library updates and distro changes? Native ports aren't the perfect solution either, honestly.

Oh, I remember. My old Loki version of Alpha Centauri is the only game I have ever actually bothered to scour the internet to figure out how to get it working. Last time I tried you could still do it, although I wasn't getting sound to work. Took a bit of fiddling though. But it's Alpha Centauri--totally worth it. The interface is a little clunky by modern standards but otherwise it's still head and shoulders the best game of its kind.

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Quoting: GuestIf Valve refund for a whitelisted game not working, or what they do if a game stops working, remains to be seen - especially if there's a native version that's not playable, or only barely functional by comparison. Too early to tell. But, indeed, something to consider beyond just technically running a game via wine.

Interesting point. The most basic case (you buy the Windows version of a whitelisted game to play on Proton and it fails to work) should be fairly straightforward: Since you have no or virtually no time played, you get a refund without explanation just like you would for a game that worked but you found the colour scheme stabbed your eyeballs. You could do it with a game you bought to play in Wine, too.

Things that stop working after you've had them a while would be trickier, though (as indeed they already are even without Proton). And there'd be wrangling over whether your setup matches specifications; it could get gnarly. Hopefully it won't come up too often.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Eike(*) It's a shame that the English language doesn't have a decent word for the German "Feierabend". "Feierabend" ("Feier" being celebration/party and "Abend" the evening time) has a connotation of finally, work is done and we can do what we want. (Probably the opposite of what we Germans are know for. :D )

Happy Hour?

Doesn't that have a heavy connotation of booze? :)

And your point is? :wink:

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: jardon

Quoting: GuestThat mirv guy was told to get his eyes checked for not agreeing. I didn't see it as a joke and asked it to be dropped. It was not.

No, I'm being told my opinion is wrong, without being told why. I suspected a case of "because Valve", and planted a few words to check....and it seems that way in some cases.
But not others. There have been a couple replies of normality, some reasons I hadn't considered. Might I highlight them?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in that? I'm not going to say that others havent reacted poorly. I'm not gonna argue that others arent in the wrong too. But let me just play out the scenario for you.

mirv: why not use wine?
others: **reasons**
mir: why not use wine?
others: **reasons**
mir: why not use wine?
others: why are you being like this?? (plus some less than favorable responses)
mir: why are you saying im wrong?

Arent you pretty much saying that others opinions are wrong by ignoring their points? People have said plenty of times that it being built in to steam is easier for them and for many many people. I, like many others, hate touching wine. Good for you in that you mastered it. Your responses (or lack thereof) clearly aren't encouraging civil discussions.

Everyone (including myself), lets take a step back and try to learn and become better members of the community to try to mitigate further encounters like this.

Sorry, but I didn't see many giving actual reasons. Some gave "reasons" of something that was already possible, in my experience, which was why I asked: why be excited when it could already be done? TheDaftRick pointed out much I hadn't thought of, and liamdawe had a couple things too.
I've not mastered wine. Vanilla, latest release, and sometimes I try git. I would like to know why I'm ok with it (technically speaking), while others might not be - or maybe they're getting something extra from "Proton" that I'm not seeing. Which are the main reasons why I ask.

My suspicion is that people are simply playing different games. I haven't tried Wine very often because back when I did, I never seemed to get a game to just happen (except original Starcraft, which used to work fine), which meant I'd have to do configuration, and I'd look at the configuration options and think "I have no idea which of these are likely to be useful", try a few half at random, and give up. No doubt I could have figured something out with a bit of research, but I didn't have enough time or motivation to do so. But if you were trying a game that Just Worked, you'd never notice that sort of problem. If all my games had worked like Starcraft it would never have occurred to me that Wine had any hiccups.

At the same time, I haven't used Proton at all and I haven't used recent Wine at all (because I don't have enough time to play most of my Linux native titles) so I don't know whether either of them would Just Work for what I might want to do. Maybe now they'd both be equally great (or equally borked).

I do like the idea of my purchase being seen as a Linux one.

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Quoting: sbolokanovBy the way I don't want to be that guy, but you do realize that there is a fix for all gaming problems right? ... Windows!

All gaming problems solved in an instant, on top of that you get basicly all games out there (if we don't count console exclusives ofcourse).

Heh. Unfortunately it's also a cause for all non-gaming problems . . .

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Quoting: TheSHEEEP

Quoting: Kristian

Quoting: SilverCode

Quoting: eldakingI think there was one more step [External Link], with Improbable claiming that Unity had explicitly told them they were not in violation and the entire "notified one year ago" was solved.

Anyway, it is certainly an advancement on one front, but proprietary software is still a huge liability.

As for the other companies involved, you know what would be actually cool? If Epic, instead of opportunistically giving money for people to use their (equally proprietary) engine, open sourced Unreal to actually solve the issue. Or if Improbable partnered with Godot instead.

Unreal Engine 4 is already Open Source. Do you maybe not mean change the license to be a more permissive royalty free one?

No, UE4 is NOT open source. Their license requirements are far from being in compliance with the open source definition: https://opensource.org/osd-annotated [External Link]

You can view something's sources? Open source to me.
I don't think a website called opensource.org gets to define what open source is or isn't by putting up additional requirements.

As that would lead to sentences like "The sources are open, but it isn't open source."
That just doesn't sound right to me.

They invented it, so yeah they do. (Well, not necessarily this .org as such, but the Open Source Definition is as old as the term Open Source; when the term was coined, the definition accompanied it to explain what it was supposed to be; opensource.org is a very direct descendant of that initial thing)

And what it was supposed to be was a rebranding of "Free Software" using a term that corporate types might be able to accept, with more emphasis on collaborative improvement and less on freedom. It was pretty successful in that.
The point of open source has always been that you get to use it for your own purposes, not just look at it. Fix it, fork it, repurpose it, improve the recipe.

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So I guess Proton needs to look at making sure various anti-cheat thingies work under Proton. There aren't that many of them and each of the popular ones presumably gets used by many games, so it should be worth focusing on it a bit. Unless there's some fundamental reason why anti-cheat software should be un-Wine-able?

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Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: Purple Library GuyBy definition, an open source engine could not have "the current license situation" because whether something is open source is determined by whether the license gives you rights that don't allow this kind of situation to happen. It's about freedom, not just being able to look at code.

It's about freedom, but you can add commercial limitations. Just like Mysql license does.

My understanding of the MySQL situation is, it's dual licensed. It's available under the GPL, or if you want to do something the GPL does not allow (like, mainly, embed it in a closed source thing and then distribute that thing), you can buy it under a commercial license which is not open source. So there is not one open source license which enforces weird commercial-license-type shenanigans. There is an open source license which works like open source, and there is a commercial license which does not.

That's my point. You can be open source (because your code product is freely available) but you can put limitations on commercial products that were based on your work.

We're not as far apart as I initially feared, but no. The dividing line is not of commercial or non-commercial use--not for the GPL and, as I recall, not within the open source definition. You can do anything with a commercial product that you can do with one that isn't; if you define your license such that people have to do something differently if they're going to make money from it, that's not open source. It's a matter of redistribution and whether you are granting the same rights as were granted to you. People selling commercial products often happen to want to close down access to code or ability to make changes or further redistribute.
True, people not selling commercial products are less likely to mind abiding by copyleft terms. But I could have a piece of software which I intended to redistribute for free, but without the code, or without the right to make changes or further redistribute it. If I wanted to embed MySQL in that software, I would not be able to use the GPL. I would have to buy the software from the copyright holder under a different, say "commercial" license, even though my software was not commercial. But I'd be insane to not just abide by the GPL instead.

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Quoting: x_wing

Quoting: Purple Library GuyBy definition, an open source engine could not have "the current license situation" because whether something is open source is determined by whether the license gives you rights that don't allow this kind of situation to happen. It's about freedom, not just being able to look at code.

It's about freedom, but you can add commercial limitations. Just like Mysql license does.

My understanding of the MySQL situation is, it's dual licensed. It's available under the GPL, or if you want to do something the GPL does not allow (like, mainly, embed it in a closed source thing and then distribute that thing), you can buy it under a commercial license which is not open source. So there is not one open source license which enforces weird commercial-license-type shenanigans. There is an open source license which works like open source, and there is a commercial license which does not.

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