Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg

I'm running Sid. I switch between Xorg and Wayland often, as some software is not working right under Wayland. And literally do not see any real performance differences (Granted, I'm also running a 7800 XT, Ryzen 9 5900X and 32gb of ram. Not the latest, by any means, but not a slouch enough to notice a few bits of slowdown anywhere in Gnome or KDE (I also like to switch between those for different reasons).)

It's funny that you say that Plasma Wayland is the best, considering they were so far behind Gnome / GTK on implementing them.

It could very much be one of those psychological things. Where someone says there is a speed difference and so you notice one, "Sure, I see it!" Kind of like seeing Jesus in a piece of bread? :P

But yes, if you knew how XFree86 evolved into Xorg, and the reasons why... Wayland sounds like they were just lazy and decided to dump Xorg for a newfangled thing. Xorg, at one point, was the 'New awesome and will fix all the problems because it's modular!'

Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people have died and a lot of new people have started using Linux and have been over promised for all these things... Until Wayland can get the damn clipboard to behave like X11, I won't be able to use it full time...

Edit: Just in case you also think "well Debian Sid is still ancient!" I also have Arch on the same system...

Running Sid? In my experience things break quite often in Sid and should NOT be what you are basing your opinions on because running a Unstable distro your literally asking for things NOT to work .. my suggestion if you want a rolling release pick an actual Rolling distro like Arch, Opensuse and many others that actually release packages with a bit more stability LMAO.. Honestly can't beleive I wasted time and my breath and here you are LITERALLY running an UNSTABLE distro 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Getting a bit rude there IMO.

Rude how.. like wut??! how is spitting facts being rude? I did not call the guy any names.. pointed out Sid is unstable and NOT a rolling release. and also pointed out from my point of view I wasted my time and breath trying to point things out to someone complaining about something being "broken" and yet here they are running an UNSTABLE distro.. don't tell me you are the type to take caps as "yelling" lol

Well, anyone who actually declares Debian Sid (unstable) as an actual unstable distribution has never ran Debian Sid or compared it to Fedora. I've had far less breakages running Debian Sid than I ever have running Fedora. Arch has had more breakages than Debian Sid. I can't stand Yast for very long, so I can't really say much about Tumbleweed.

1) I know what I'm doing. 2) the only time Sid really breaks is right after a new stable is released, because there is a flood of new packages that were sitting in experimental.

By the way, you also ignored that I also run Arch in a triple boot (along with the OS that shall not be named). I also run many other operating systems in my day to day, and Debian 'unstable' is one of the more stable operating systems on the planet. You do know that Ubuntu pulls from Debian Unstable, right? Like Ubuntu wouldn't exist without Debian Sid?

I have ran Sid, ran it for about a month last year and several times over the years.. always ended in same result.. packages breaking and uninstalling Sid.. Sid is unstable its NOT a release meant for everyday use and kills the point to Debian thus its unstable nature.. You simply can NOT use Sid as an example of broken features when its pretty common for packages to be broken on Sid

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Quoting: Linux_Rocks

Quoting: Caleb_MIf only they could get SkyUI in their store, I'd come back in a heartbeat. Skyrim on deck sounds awesome. But SkyUI is absolutely required for me to enjoy it.

I wish Fall of the Space Core was on there too... ☄️

Do you people not know you can most likely install the mods from Nexus?? you are not stuck using the in game mod browser

Edit: NVM noticed that mod hasn't been updated but I do know SkyUI is on nexus updated for Skyrim SE

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg

I'm running Sid. I switch between Xorg and Wayland often, as some software is not working right under Wayland. And literally do not see any real performance differences (Granted, I'm also running a 7800 XT, Ryzen 9 5900X and 32gb of ram. Not the latest, by any means, but not a slouch enough to notice a few bits of slowdown anywhere in Gnome or KDE (I also like to switch between those for different reasons).)

It's funny that you say that Plasma Wayland is the best, considering they were so far behind Gnome / GTK on implementing them.

It could very much be one of those psychological things. Where someone says there is a speed difference and so you notice one, "Sure, I see it!" Kind of like seeing Jesus in a piece of bread? :P

But yes, if you knew how XFree86 evolved into Xorg, and the reasons why... Wayland sounds like they were just lazy and decided to dump Xorg for a newfangled thing. Xorg, at one point, was the 'New awesome and will fix all the problems because it's modular!'

Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people have died and a lot of new people have started using Linux and have been over promised for all these things... Until Wayland can get the damn clipboard to behave like X11, I won't be able to use it full time...

Edit: Just in case you also think "well Debian Sid is still ancient!" I also have Arch on the same system...

Running Sid? In my experience things break quite often in Sid and should NOT be what you are basing your opinions on because running a Unstable distro your literally asking for things NOT to work .. my suggestion if you want a rolling release pick an actual Rolling distro like Arch, Opensuse and many others that actually release packages with a bit more stability LMAO.. Honestly can't beleive I wasted time and my breath and here you are LITERALLY running an UNSTABLE distro 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Getting a bit rude there IMO.

Rude how.. like wut??! how is spitting facts being rude? I did not call the guy any names.. pointed out Sid is unstable and NOT a rolling release. and also pointed out from my point of view I wasted my time and breath trying to point things out to someone complaining about something being "broken" and yet here they are running an UNSTABLE distro.. don't tell me you are the type to take caps as "yelling" lol

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Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg

I'm running Sid. I switch between Xorg and Wayland often, as some software is not working right under Wayland. And literally do not see any real performance differences (Granted, I'm also running a 7800 XT, Ryzen 9 5900X and 32gb of ram. Not the latest, by any means, but not a slouch enough to notice a few bits of slowdown anywhere in Gnome or KDE (I also like to switch between those for different reasons).)

It's funny that you say that Plasma Wayland is the best, considering they were so far behind Gnome / GTK on implementing them.

It could very much be one of those psychological things. Where someone says there is a speed difference and so you notice one, "Sure, I see it!" Kind of like seeing Jesus in a piece of bread? :P

But yes, if you knew how XFree86 evolved into Xorg, and the reasons why... Wayland sounds like they were just lazy and decided to dump Xorg for a newfangled thing. Xorg, at one point, was the 'New awesome and will fix all the problems because it's modular!'

Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people have died and a lot of new people have started using Linux and have been over promised for all these things... Until Wayland can get the damn clipboard to behave like X11, I won't be able to use it full time...

Edit: Just in case you also think "well Debian Sid is still ancient!" I also have Arch on the same system...

Running Sid? In my experience things break quite often in Sid and should NOT be what you are basing your opinions on because running a Unstable distro your literally asking for things NOT to work .. my suggestion if you want a rolling release pick an actual Rolling distro like Arch, Opensuse and many others that actually release packages with a bit more stability LMAO.. Honestly can't beleive I wasted time and my breath and here you are LITERALLY running an UNSTABLE distro 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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Quoting: Caleb_MIf only they could get SkyUI in their store, I'd come back in a heartbeat. Skyrim on deck sounds awesome. But SkyUI is absolutely required for me to enjoy it.

Can just download it from Nexus..

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Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg

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Quoting: TSpencerhmm, so far i've had no issues whatsoever in the past 16 months with battlenet on steam deck, sure they might now be owned by microsoft, but the online games microsoft purchased are licensed out to ubisoft for the next five years. that would definitely explain the issues that others are having with loaders (although i haven't had any myself) since ubisoft loaders break constantly

Ubisoft ONLY has the streaming rights, not "online", "offline" or any other rights, so in other words Ubisoft has squat to do with any ABK game other then streaming it outside the United States

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Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

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Quoting: RenardDesMersI was shopping for a new monitor for black Friday and was debating with myself about how useful would HDR and Freesync features be since Wayland can't support those yet and I don't really know when they'll get decent support.
Hopefully the wayland folks remember about the gamers when prioritizing the missing features.

Wayland supports Freesync just fine, at least on KDE and honestly Wayland on KDE IMHO is better then any other implementation as good luck having a good gaming experience on GNOME waylay with all its input lag since on GNOME you can't turn off Vsync in wayland lol

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Quoting: Talon1024IMHO, this is a good example of why we should insist on native Linux ports instead of relying on WINE/Proton for everything.

Typically Native ports are worse off then running games in proton as to be frank 98% of the game industry can still give a rats arse about linux.. At least with Proton Valve can step in and brute force games to be compatible were as with native ports we are stuck with what ever half assery devs gives us

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