Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: tohurinput lag from vsync has squat to do with refresh rate honesly

It has a lot to do with that I'd say. If refresh rate is low (60 Hz) and compositor waits for vertial sync, you'll notice lag. Tearing means compositor doesn't wait and draws even if it will result in jagged image, so you'll see updates before the full refresh cycle even happens, which in practice means lower latency (lag). That kind of scenario benefits from enabling tearing.

Scenario when your refresh rate is 144 Hz and more reduces the period of blanks low enough that you don't notice anything even if compositor waits for it. But more importantly, you need to have adaptive sync (VRR) in order to avoid unnecessary waits. That's an improvement of the old style vsync.

There was a thread about it here: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/forum/topic/5185/

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Which is why for me KDE trumps GNOME as Freesync works out the box on wayland. Last time I tried gnome don't think freesync worked thus the bad experience on top of using vsync

Input lag can be caused by a whole host of other things, outside of what software you're using even. There's a spreadsheet out there somewhere detailing all of the input lag of just using specific game pads versus another set of gamepads. I've never had any issues with input lag on gaming myself, though that could be because I'm too old to notice. But then if I don't notice, does it matter if it's there? It's like a fart you don't smell.

Amusingly, the main reason I flip between gnome/kde right now is because File-roller is broken as far as being able to drag / drop files into Nautilus at the moment (something about the transition to a new GTK or something is lagging behind). So when I am attempting to copy software over to a CF card for my DOS/Win9x machines, I flip to KDE. This is where I don't really notice any difference whether I'm using wayland or xorg, gnome or kde. I guess if I were bored stiff, I could run some benchmarks on some games to see if Wayland+KDE or Wayland+Gnome or Xorg+KDE or Xorg+Gnome can inch out a few more FPS here or there, or have less lag... but frankly don't give a crap. I've listed the reasons why Wayland 'doesn't quite work for me yet' and that I still need Xorg for over and over again.

I've said many times over, there should be a DE somewhere in between KDE and Gnome. Gnome seems to go for the simplistic, get out of your way desktop environment, and has some useful little quirks in it. KDE goes for the 'give you all the options you could ever think of, and 10x more that you couldn't, because someone else on the internet thought it up.' approach. Both approaches are valid, but I think there would be a lot to say about a DE that could hit right in the middle of that. Or even if KDE could figure out a 'simplified' way.

I used to prefer Gnome over KDE because GTK had cooler themes / and felt less like Windows. Now Gnome just reminds me of macOS, which I have learned to despise :P

Yes thats true input lag can because by many things but in my case I think its a mixture of being locked to using Vsync and not having proper Freesync support in GNOME on wayland and the games I tend to play I notice the lag thus why KDE is just better in this regard. Honestly haven't liked GNOME since they have started down the path of mimicking Apple/macOS in every way possible.. the good, bad and the ugly.

Also KDE does have it in the plans to make a simplified settings app and just app settings in general for folks that just want the out the box experience and basic customization.. and have the rest the settings toggled on with a advanced toggle or something... Theres an Youtuber thats a KDE dev that talked about it some months back on one of his videos

There apparently are ways to enable Freesync within Xorg... I know G-Sync worked when I had nvidia. All three of my monitors support GSync but according to xrandr, only one of them supports Freesync. Wayland requires the DE apparently to enable it?

The wayland compositor for the DE needs to support it.. thus for GNOME they need to add it to mutter I think. KDE added it to kwin_wayland ages ago. as far as wayland goes KDE is quite ahead of GNOME as they will be adding HDR in plasma 6 on wayland.. I tried to enable freesync on xorg before I completely swapped to wayland but could never get it to work properly.. on plasma wayland was a simple setting on the display configuration in the settings app

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Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: tohurinput lag from vsync has squat to do with refresh rate honesly

It has a lot to do with that I'd say. If refresh rate is low (60 Hz) and compositor waits for vertial sync, you'll notice lag. Tearing means compositor doesn't wait and draws even if it will result in jagged image, so you'll see updates before the full refresh cycle even happens, which in practice means lower latency (lag). That kind of scenario benefits from enabling tearing.

Scenario when your refresh rate is 144 Hz and more reduces the period of blanks low enough that you don't notice anything even if compositor waits for it. But more importantly, you need to have adaptive sync (VRR) in order to avoid unnecessary waits. That's an improvement of the old style vsync.

There was a thread about it here: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/forum/topic/5185/

Here is a useful diagram:

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Which is why for me KDE trumps GNOME as Freesync works out the box on wayland. Last time I tried gnome don't think freesync worked thus the bad experience on top of using vsync

Input lag can be caused by a whole host of other things, outside of what software you're using even. There's a spreadsheet out there somewhere detailing all of the input lag of just using specific game pads versus another set of gamepads. I've never had any issues with input lag on gaming myself, though that could be because I'm too old to notice. But then if I don't notice, does it matter if it's there? It's like a fart you don't smell.

Amusingly, the main reason I flip between gnome/kde right now is because File-roller is broken as far as being able to drag / drop files into Nautilus at the moment (something about the transition to a new GTK or something is lagging behind). So when I am attempting to copy software over to a CF card for my DOS/Win9x machines, I flip to KDE. This is where I don't really notice any difference whether I'm using wayland or xorg, gnome or kde. I guess if I were bored stiff, I could run some benchmarks on some games to see if Wayland+KDE or Wayland+Gnome or Xorg+KDE or Xorg+Gnome can inch out a few more FPS here or there, or have less lag... but frankly don't give a crap. I've listed the reasons why Wayland 'doesn't quite work for me yet' and that I still need Xorg for over and over again.

I've said many times over, there should be a DE somewhere in between KDE and Gnome. Gnome seems to go for the simplistic, get out of your way desktop environment, and has some useful little quirks in it. KDE goes for the 'give you all the options you could ever think of, and 10x more that you couldn't, because someone else on the internet thought it up.' approach. Both approaches are valid, but I think there would be a lot to say about a DE that could hit right in the middle of that. Or even if KDE could figure out a 'simplified' way.

I used to prefer Gnome over KDE because GTK had cooler themes / and felt less like Windows. Now Gnome just reminds me of macOS, which I have learned to despise :P

Yes thats true input lag can because by many things but in my case I think its a mixture of being locked to using Vsync and not having proper Freesync support in GNOME on wayland and the games I tend to play I notice the lag thus why KDE is just better in this regard. Honestly haven't liked GNOME since they have started down the path of mimicking Apple/macOS in every way possible.. the good, bad and the ugly.

Also KDE does have it in the plans to make a simplified settings app and just app settings in general for folks that just want the out the box experience and basic customization.. and have the rest the settings toggled on with a advanced toggle or something... Theres an Youtuber thats a KDE dev that talked about it some months back on one of his videos

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: tohurinput lag from vsync has squat to do with refresh rate honesly

It has a lot to do with that I'd say. If refresh rate is low (60 Hz) and compositor waits for vertial sync, you'll notice lag. Tearing means compositor doesn't wait and draws even if it will result in jagged image, so you'll see updates before the full refresh cycle even happens, which in practice means lower latency (lag). That kind of scenario benefits from enabling tearing.

Scenario when your refresh rate is 144 Hz and more reduces the period of blanks low enough that you don't notice anything even if compositor waits for it. But more importantly, you need to have adaptive sync (VRR) in order to avoid unnecessary waits. That's an improvement of the old style vsync.

There was a thread about it here: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/forum/topic/5185/

Here is a useful diagram:

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Which is why for me KDE trumps GNOME as Freesync works out the box on wayland. Last time I tried gnome don't think freesync worked thus the bad experience on top of using vsync

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: tohurbruh you clearly haven't compared GNOME vs KDE in this regard.. the Input lag in shooters and the such is bad enough it is noticeable lol. plenty of recent bug reports/ feature request out there to prove it is an issue now

I think Gnome's input lag has nothing to do with refresh rate, they just didn't optimize their own compositor for lower latency unlike KWin developers did. I.e. besides refresh rate delaying drawing, input lag can be caused by simply compositor doing any stuff before it's ready to draw. If you have too much of that - you'll have lag.

So yeah, Gnome might have such issue, but adding tearing won't help it if they don't optimize what they aren't doing efficiently, that's my point.

input lag from vsync has squat to do with refresh rate honesly but is more noticable on certain refresh rates.. Vsync just naturally adds input lag regardless if you notice it or not. Honestly I feel like for me its only noticeable on high refresh rates as I play my games at 144hz

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: tohurThe reason you turn Vsync off is input lag.. granted you don't notice it in most games but fast paced games you need Vsync off because in competitive games even moderate lag will get you killed. GNOME doesn't allow for you to turn it off in wayland and trust me in wayland you want Vsync off because with it on the lag is terrible.. for my preferred games GNOME is bad bad LMAO.. in KDE wayland there is a setting to allow screen tearing aka turnk off vsync for full screen apps aka games. the overall gaming experience is better on KDE

I said it before, but whole turn vsync off for input lag idea is like couple decades or more old and is in practice outdated.

It originates from the time when everyone had 60 Hz displays. Those who worry about input lag today don't use such displays, so with adaptive sync and 144 Hz display (or even more) having tearing above monitor refresh rate range is of little value, because you won't notice much of a difference.

If you have 60 Hz monitor still - then yeah. So it's useful that KDE supports such scenario, but less useful than how it sounds.

bruh you clearly haven't compared GNOME vs KDE in this regard.. the Input lag in shooters and the such is bad enough it is noticeable lol. plenty of recent bug reports/ feature request out there to prove it is an issue now

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Quoting: slaapliedjeWhy would you turn off Vsync, also, pretty sure Gnome got to Wayland support long before KDE. Which means they're wanting to drop Xorg support sooner. Also, Gnome is pretty much developed by Redhat at this point... so them wanting to drop Xorg support for RHEL 10 and Gnome wanting to do the same makes a whole lot of sense... if you think Wayland is ready (which I don't think it is).

The reason you turn Vsync off is input lag.. granted you don't notice it in most games but fast paced games you need Vsync off because in competitive games even moderate lag will get you killed. GNOME doesn't allow for you to turn it off in wayland and trust me in wayland you want Vsync off because with it on the lag is terrible.. for my preferred games GNOME is bad bad LMAO.. in KDE wayland there is a setting to allow screen tearing aka turnk off vsync for full screen apps aka games. the overall gaming experience is better on KDE

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Quoting: Adutchman

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

I think that isn't true. The reason we need something new is simple: Xorg was released in 2004. Pretty much everything is different now and with software, once it starts doing things that weren't concievable when it was designed, things start falling apart. "Modularity" isn't a checkbox, it is a relative thing. What a module was supposed to be was also thought up in 2004, so that is also inadequate. In 204, screens were 480p, screensharing did not exist, security was not really a designconsideration, VR was still science fiction and Linux desktop Linux was still very obscure. Stating that creating something new was just because people wanted something new is not really fair IMO.

LMAO you missed that date by like 20 years bruh.. X11.. aka Xorg was released in the 80s..

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Quoting: ShmerlI'd agree about Gnome not being the best option. I haven't followed Gnome progress in a while, but someone told me it doesn't even have minimizing windows concept now. Stuff like CSD and such also never made a lot of sense to me.

Yea Wayland on GNOME lacks alot and is crazy they are talking about getting rid of the Xorg session LMAO.. And good luck gaming on GNOME wayland as its input lag is terrible since Vsync can not be turned off in GNOME wayland like we can turn it off on Plasma .. Yea CSDs are stupid as heck lol.

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Quoting: ShmerlPoint of Debian is a moot thing. A lot of people use Sid or testing for desktop purposes. You wouldn't want to use Debian stable for that purpose at all.

But, it's not an newbie friendly distro to use.

And those people understand the risks.. this guy seems to not care or ignore those risk when sitting here complaining about things (wayland) being broken. and let alone the fact hes using GNOME which is about the worst wayland implementation there is

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Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: tohur

Quoting: reaperx7I love how Red Hat loves to push (force) people to buggy and incomplete software touting it as "stable" when the truth is far from reality.

Wayland is nice, but the fact that every compositor does everything inconsistent with each other, and often conflicts with how Xorg/XWayland does things, with pretty much everything the original developers intend, pretty much leave me saying "this isn't a good idea".

Honestly, nothing was wrong with Xorg, in my opinion. It works as intended like Windows GDI+. Yes there were some security flaws, but really, what was wrong with Xorg? I honestly see Wayland as a solution in search of a problem, not the other way around. If there was consistency with the compositors this wouldn't be a problem, but Plasma has their own problems, Gnome wants to be the rebellious child, Enlightenment is their own thing, Weston is sitting in the corner rocking back and forth thinking its a tea pot, and God knows what else the rest are doing running around the house aimlessly, but nothing is consistent while Xorg is sitting at the table, well behaved and saying "Oh so I'm not that important anymore? Have fun with the miscreants!" as it sits it's tea and reads the newspaper.

If you think Xorg is well "behaved" and not an issue you do not live in reality.. xorg is a utter mess and needs to go. frankly since swapping to Plasma wayland my PC performs much better

In my mind, the only thing Xorg needed fixing on was a better / more supported way to not run as root. Outside of that, they did all the work to make it modular during the development from XFree86. The problem is that people don't like maintaining old stuff, and want to play with new toys. That's all Wayland is. It'll be a new toy, until it isn't, then someone else will declare that it's crap and no one should be using it and then we'll be in the exact same boat as before...

There are definitely things that Wayland does okay, but nothing they do that is special over X11, and end up still needing compatibility layer to X11...

Performance wise, I notice very little difference between Xorg / Wayland. Like somethings feel a little smoother, other things feel slower. I definitely notice things just not working right in Wayland though. Weirdly, I had an issue where the Synology Drive app didn't want to work in Xorg, but would in Wayland... after a reboot, it was fine though.

Bruh xorg is gone man... fact is if you look into things alot of the Xorg devs left to wayland.. they did so when drafting up X12 which eventually became wayland. Xorg is old bloated and outdated af, code over 30+ years old, bugs that date back to the 80s that have NEVER seen fixes and will never see fixes. And if you have actually used a functioning wayland session I highly doubt you didn't see any performance differences. But seeing you use Debian might explain your remarks here because in a up to date system wayland blows xorg out the water. Also considering you use GNOME explains alot as wayland on GNOME sucks because GNOME being GNOME trys to do their own thing and frankly is terrible. IMO Plasma Wayland is the best implementation of wayland and truly shows where wayland is going and why its just simply better then xorg in every way.

Also I am of the mind set that every so often we need to create new display servers to get rid of all the crud and bloat because eventually wayland will see the same fate as xorg

I'm running Sid. I switch between Xorg and Wayland often, as some software is not working right under Wayland. And literally do not see any real performance differences (Granted, I'm also running a 7800 XT, Ryzen 9 5900X and 32gb of ram. Not the latest, by any means, but not a slouch enough to notice a few bits of slowdown anywhere in Gnome or KDE (I also like to switch between those for different reasons).)

It's funny that you say that Plasma Wayland is the best, considering they were so far behind Gnome / GTK on implementing them.

It could very much be one of those psychological things. Where someone says there is a speed difference and so you notice one, "Sure, I see it!" Kind of like seeing Jesus in a piece of bread? :P

But yes, if you knew how XFree86 evolved into Xorg, and the reasons why... Wayland sounds like they were just lazy and decided to dump Xorg for a newfangled thing. Xorg, at one point, was the 'New awesome and will fix all the problems because it's modular!'

Honestly, I think it's because a lot of people have died and a lot of new people have started using Linux and have been over promised for all these things... Until Wayland can get the damn clipboard to behave like X11, I won't be able to use it full time...

Edit: Just in case you also think "well Debian Sid is still ancient!" I also have Arch on the same system...

Running Sid? In my experience things break quite often in Sid and should NOT be what you are basing your opinions on because running a Unstable distro your literally asking for things NOT to work .. my suggestion if you want a rolling release pick an actual Rolling distro like Arch, Opensuse and many others that actually release packages with a bit more stability LMAO.. Honestly can't beleive I wasted time and my breath and here you are LITERALLY running an UNSTABLE distro 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Getting a bit rude there IMO.

Rude how.. like wut??! how is spitting facts being rude? I did not call the guy any names.. pointed out Sid is unstable and NOT a rolling release. and also pointed out from my point of view I wasted my time and breath trying to point things out to someone complaining about something being "broken" and yet here they are running an UNSTABLE distro.. don't tell me you are the type to take caps as "yelling" lol

Well, anyone who actually declares Debian Sid (unstable) as an actual unstable distribution has never ran Debian Sid or compared it to Fedora. I've had far less breakages running Debian Sid than I ever have running Fedora. Arch has had more breakages than Debian Sid. I can't stand Yast for very long, so I can't really say much about Tumbleweed.

1) I know what I'm doing. 2) the only time Sid really breaks is right after a new stable is released, because there is a flood of new packages that were sitting in experimental.

By the way, you also ignored that I also run Arch in a triple boot (along with the OS that shall not be named). I also run many other operating systems in my day to day, and Debian 'unstable' is one of the more stable operating systems on the planet. You do know that Ubuntu pulls from Debian Unstable, right? Like Ubuntu wouldn't exist without Debian Sid?

I have ran Sid, ran it for about a month last year and several times over the years.. always ended in same result.. packages breaking and uninstalling Sid.. Sid is unstable its NOT a release meant for everyday use and kills the point to Debian thus its unstable nature.. You simply can NOT use Sid as an example of broken features when its pretty common for packages to be broken on Sid

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