Quoting: scaine

Quoting: Odisej

Quoting: scaineI've a Gnome guy since I started on Linux, albeit dabbling with various other DEs over the years. Nothing outside of Gnome felt like home, however. Until about 3 months ago when I gave KDE another shot and discovered that I could get the exact same experience/workflow, but without the various dumbed-down apps. Gnome will always have a special place in my heart, but I'm a KDE convert now.

Tried it but am used to activities overview so much I moved back to gnome. i wonder how did you overcome this.

I didn't rely on the overview much, but I definitely miss it when I press the super key. I now have that mapped to open Extended Menu, which is a nice start menu. And when I need activities overview itself, I use super-tab.

Not ideal, but not a deal breaker for me either.

I'll be honest, the only thing I miss when using Gnome over KDE is wobbly windows. 😜

Also, while I know officially at one point it was supposed to be pronounced Guh-Nome. I can't bring myself to call it that! So I really wish people would just pronounce it like the short bearded guys we stick in our gardens.
https://mobile.twitter.com/gnome/status/1169956747324227585?lang=en [External Link]
No news like GNU news, right?

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: slaapliedjeHuh, Debian just warns you when there is a kernel mismatch during the nvidia update and you'll need to reboot at your earliest convenience. I've never seen it just take down X for the fun of it.

It doesn't. When you try to use the panel widget to shut down, it pops up a box to ask if it's shutting down, restarting, or logging out that you're after. Spawning that window when you've got a mismatch between the library that the widget was expecting and the one it actually has causes the widget to crash before it successfully spawns the box. So you can't use that method to shut down.

This is in KDE? Huh, weird. I have not experienced that in Gnome. I'd have to check next time there is a new nvidia driver for Sid to try that. Sounds like it's trying to make a new GL call, and since the library had changed, it just crashes. Though you'd think it'd just use whatever is in memory.

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Quoting: win8linux

Quoting: slaapliedjeHa, so their decision to not be practical (or to clean up all the extra cruft) is based upon feelings instead of good design requirements?

How users feel about using an interface is part of the data gathered during UX testing. Don't exactly want to make UI that people hate to use, after all.

Also, you just showed that you didn't actually read the whole segment in the wiki page. Read the whole thing, as the quoted rationale against it isn't the only one.

Ha, yeah I'll be honest, I didn't read any of it. I usually post / read posts in small lulls during the work day. So reading design documents usually don't slip into that amount of time.

People usually like / dislike user interfaces if they don't act in logical ways. Granted what may seem logical to a programmer may not always seem logical to an end user. Even beyond that, there is just a different mentality. Programmers tend to not see any reason why you should always be running the latest. Where say an operations side person would rather their stuff be stable. I tend to be somewhere in between where I prefer to use latest stuff, but I know where / when you should run older, more proven software.

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: MohandevirThe bug that quickly comes to my mind, that I personnally witnessed, since switching to Kubuntu, is always happening after an update... Suddenly I can't turn off or reboot the computer. Everytime I get an error message that... I don't remember the name... just crashed. I have to ALT+F4 + CTRL-ALT-DEL to reboot.

If it's the thing I've seen, it's specifically after Nvidia updates. The version mismatch causes the shutdown widget to crash when you try to use it. You can still do sudo shutdown -h now though.

Huh, Debian just warns you when there is a kernel mismatch during the nvidia update and you'll need to reboot at your earliest convenience. I've never seen it just take down X for the fun of it.

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Quoting: rustybroomhandle

Quoting: fearnflavio

Quoting: rustybroomhandleAgain, sorry for being a broken record, but devs just do not realize the amount of heavy lifting done for them by Valve/partners/community and probably don't appreciate it nearly enough.

Yes, totally true. :grin:
Still, even though is an unpopular opinion, let's also do not forget that Steam deck is a product that Valve is selling to get profit. Also, they get 30% for every game sold under Steam from any dev. So it's just business, not because they 'love' Linux. They need profit and Linux is the way to go.
Same with Android. Google 'loves' Linux, uses it everywhere, but because they can have their own platform based on it. Every company in the world wants the same.

Oh, absolutely. Not disputing that one bit. At least they are pretty good about keeping their efforts open source and not also not creating locked down systems.

A lot of developers reeeally hate that 30% though and are convinced they get nothing in return for it.

Here's something that I think gets a little silly.
There are developers and there are publishers. Valve manages to do both, but also has a store for both. In the case of the big massive publishers (like Activision, Ubisoft, Electronic Arts) they pay developers whatever percentage they feel like. It's really 30% that Valve charges them, I would think. I'm betting it's something like 30% to Valve, 50% to publisher, 20% to dev studio who did all the work.

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Quoting: Mohandevir

Quoting: furaxhornyx

Quoting: scaine

Quoting: furaxhornyxI also find it buggy and clunky as well

Can you be specific? What bugs did you encounter? How is it clunky?[..]

A few things I encountered while trying different distros with various versions of KDE, from the top of my head:

• Error messages on a fresh install (I think it was Kubuntu ?)


• Error messages on the first update after a fresh install (like "missing libraries" or something like this, don't remember exactly what is was)


• I will never understand the "wait for 30 more seconds" when you decide to turn your computer off, and did not find how to change this (at least easily, I admit I didn't bother much)


• I was quite confused by the Settings panel or whatever it is called


• Overall it felt "sluggish" and not as much responsive as Cinnamon (or others I tried, like xfce and mate), even in a VM without hardware acceleration for Cinnamon

The bug that quickly comes to my mind, that I personnally witnessed, since switching to Kubuntu, is always happening after an update... Suddenly I can't turn off or reboot the computer. Everytime I get an error message that... I don't remember the name... just crashed. I have to ALT+F4 + CTRL-ALT-DEL to reboot. Weird, but quite similar to what Windows is doing, also after updates... It's just that the whole desktop gets frozen... The start menu doesn't answer at all... CTRL-ALT-DEL + Reboot. :wink:

Nasty. I think I may have seen this once. My favorite one with KDE in Debian Sid right now is that I seem to have to tell it to log out / reboot / power off twice before it'll actually do it. Like did it think I was joking?

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Quoting: fenglengshunnce I've actually encountered a KDE distro that fits my taste in workflow, I fell in love with it.

Which KDE distro is this? I tend to use Debian because it sets up what the project feels should be the defaults. If the Project leads could get some advice from the distros on a better default, that'd be fantastic.

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: slaapliedjeA good example of this is the clock settings. In Gnome, you can change it in the settings -> Date & Time. It lists 'Automatic Date & Time', or you can manually change it. And Time Zone. And 24 hour or AM/PM.

Then it is smart enough to do the reast based on location.

KDE on the other hand (which it looks like it is better, is still terrible)...
Settings -> Regional Settings -> Date & Time Or Time Zone (they are on separate tabs).

Right-click on the clock widget -> Adjust Date and Time.

Ha, I perhaps should have used a different example. But hopefully my point is still relevant to many of the other system settings. Also... why have System menu, and Settings menu, then have System Settings? Should be called Preferences or something...

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Quoting: win8linux

Quoting: slaapliedjeI obviously can't know what others speak to, but I personally find their settings / control panel to be a bloated mess. Many articles I have read point out the wish for a Basic / Adanced mode toggle.

Avoiding basic/advanced modes is one of the lessons that KDE folks have learned over the years:
https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved/Design/Lessons_Learned#Basic.2Fadvanced_modes [External Link]

There are a number of reasons outlined why they generally avoid having basic/advanced settings separation, but this stood out:

Users who doubt their technical prowess will fear entering the advanced view, while users of great ego will find the basic view insulting even if it meets their needs better than the advanced view.

I've seen the last half of that sentence in particular happen with all kinds of software over the years and there are pretty good chances that it will happen again sometime after this comment.

Also, that wiki page in general gives a lot of insights into what KDE has learned over decades of designing user interfaces and their design philosophy. Well worth a read for anyone interested in all that.

Ha, so their decision to not be practical (or to clean up all the extra cruft) is based upon feelings instead of good design requirements?

I have great technical prowess (at least I like to think so), I just want a better, more logical layout of options, and some clean up of things that aren't used by a lot of people. Unfortunately without enabling analytics (which we all freaking hate), I don't know how they can really judge on what is useful to have and what is not. Maybe they should do more user polls?

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Quoting: TermyToo be quite frank, since plasma matured there is little to no reason for choosing almost any other DE.
Plasma is fast as hell while being fully customizable and having more than enough eye candy, you can mimik the behaviour of almost any other DE while being either more performant or more feature-rich. Plus, the KDE-Apps are among the very best in most cases imho.
So i tend to agree with Nate ^^
Given, i'm not saying the other DEs don't deserve to exist, it's always nice if someone has passion for something and thus can bring out new great ideas! But from a standpoint of choosing a "default-DE", KDE probably is the best bet for vendor-customization while keeping compatibility.

And with new funding from Valve, it can only get even better :D

I've tried to like KDE ever since 1.0. Part of the reason I haven't liked it is that it feels awfully close to Windows. Now I do find it amusing that KDE how it sits now came out before Windows 7 and 7 felt like it'd full on copied KDE for once. But one of the reasons I've always liked Gnome (even running it from pre-1.0) was that it was rather different in how it did things. Then again the first thing that got me to run Linux was Enlightenment's power of theming. It was wonderful, and I'd likely use it today if there were a suite of applications for it that used EFL...

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