Quoting: Hori@LeonardK
Why I'm putting religion and *ism together is simple: humans always split into camps, for whatever reason is justifiable at that moment. It can be anything, as long as it's more or less clear enough of a difference between groups.
It's that us-vs-them mentality that it's part of our psychology and we can't get away from. We can only mitigate it, but most people seem to lack the strength to do it.

While it is true that we like to classify, some classifications you can self-identify into and some not. That's *one* of the big issues with such an approach.

Also, when I said "guilty" I meant that those camps in general are guilty of insults: e.g. there's always people in one camp that slight the people from the other. And as I've said, unfortunately, the vocal few can spoil the whole thing.

Sure there are, but saying "they are guilty" and "they are victims" in one sentence doesn't make any sense, despite those terms being closely related. A vocal few are shitty, but why then, not join those who are not?

Also, I wasn't specifically refering just to the lgbt "camp". I am refering to any camp/group/category. A lot of those use insults, ask for "reparation" (what that means differs from case to case), etc.

As someone who's active in the community, I've barely seen that, except from people who could be considered 'collectively denounced' like Alice Schwarzer or Betty White.

I will assume the mistake of not being clear enough, since this article and most people were talking about the lgbt pride event, and I was talking about pride events and groups of any kind. And my english isn't the best, especially at this hour.

You might not think it's fair to put all of those things together and I understand your point put remember that all I mean is the us-vs-them / group-vs-group issue that I've mentioned, which is very worrying to me since what we need is unity not more division, and that those groups can become corrupted.

I understand the worrying, but that's why those pride events specifically do not have any gatekeeper. Everyone is allowed to come and have fun together. So the event does, in fact, not create division but *celebrate differences* while being inclusionary. Believe, it works rather well :P

I've also edited my comment in the meantime.

Yes, and you've for example mentioned places where no (almost no) sexism etc. exists. But those are precisely the places where pride events are rather common and rather widely accepted!

I find it very hard to explain myself right now since it's very late, but to make it clear, all I mean to say is that it's worrying and dangerous to have different categories of people in different boats. We should try to avoid it (as much as we can, it'll never be perfect), and be inclusive rather than divisive.
And to keep it in the context of LGBTQIA+, it's simply a case that for me, who sees "us" as covering all sexual orientations, it's kind of weird to see lgbt people kind of "advertising" themselves as a different group, that's all.

The goal is to all live together safely and respectfully, and while it might be too utopic to achieve, we should still strive towards that goal. I'd much rather have something like a fairness/diversity/acceptance pride month. IMO that is the collective goal of many of the groups and pride events, for all to live together, that should be the normal, the "default", so that's what we should promote.

The thing is, nobody is advertising as a different group. Nobody is asking you to join a group. Perhaps "pride event" is simply a misnomer, as it's more an event to highlight that those, politically and socially small, groups exist and should be treated in fairness. But we can't discuss the current situation (eg. queer people being discriminated against) without shedding light onto this fact. Actually this is one of the reasons of the rather violent outbreaks in the US:

Years of ignoring the fact that the US, specifically police, have ingrained institutionalized racism. Things have happened that are so outraging that people simply *cannot* be calm about it anymore, because being silent doesn't change a thing, unfortunately.

Again, I just want to highlight that those countries with least sexism, or queer phobia are those that have (many) pride events. These are peaceful, inclusive events where everybody hangs out. It's fun, it's as free as it can get, it's relaxing. And that's precisely the signal we need.

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Quoting: einherjar

Quoting: Liam Dawe@einherjar, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point to cause a fuss or just terribly ignorant. I would urge you to go read up on some history of why Pride is an event. As others have pointed out already, very clearly, there's serious reasons why it exists.

Of course there can only be one correct opinion on the subject. That I did not understand this immediately is of course very stupid, ignorant and also intolerant of me.Perhaps also *phob or so, I am not sure. May the beholders of the one and only tolerant and correct opinion forgive me.
I apology.

It was indeed absolutely not ok, to wonder why people are proud on their gender or sexual orientation. And asking why, was even worse.Probably it is a mental disorder of mine, that I am not proud on being hetero. That disorder is surely the reason, why I am ignorant and did not understand.

I will try not to write anything in this context on GOL anymore.

This, precisely, is trolling, jfyi. Just note, that nobody has called you phobic, nor has anyone argued that your opinion is necessarily bad. But there were counter points against your position that you ignored, multiple times. Other points you raised (like 'not being proud on being a hetero') were not even argued against, I for myself, am not proud of my orientation as well.

To sum it up: Nobody has *ever* said anything you imply we'd say. In fact, after you already assumed we'd say that, we said that we wouldn't say that.

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Quoting: Liam Dawe@einherjar, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point to cause a fuss or just terribly ignorant. I would urge you to go read up on some history of why Pride is an event. As others have pointed out already, very clearly, there's serious reasons why it exists.

Quoting: Liam Dawe@einherjar, I honestly can't tell if you're trolling at this point to cause a fuss or just terribly ignorant. I would urge you to go read up on some history of why Pride is an event. As others have pointed out already, very clearly, there's serious reasons why it exists.

Quoting: Hori

Quoting: psy-q

Quoting: HoriSo let's not victimise ourselves when we do the same things to others, ok?

I wasn't entirely serious, I hoped the tongue emoji would set the tone.

But what was serious is that I really dread revealing I'm on Linux in most gamer communities and only do it when I have to. Either they make Linux the scapegoat for any problems you might have, they try to convert you to Windows or they start insulting you (calling you a cheapskate, a hippie, etc.) so that any productive discussion is pretty much killed.

I've not insulted Windows or macOS (or Android or iOS) users ever, so I'm not sure "everyone's insulting everyone" is really apt. But I'm mostly just in two gaming communities now, one of them GOL, so I don't know if the tone everywhere else is like on the IGN message boards of circa. 2002.

I can subscribe to the "they make Linux the scapegoat for any problems you might have," part, but I haven't encountered the other problems personally (but I've seen other people).

I wasn't clear in my comment but what I meant by everyone is every "camp", be it linux, apple, lgbt, nations, and any other way of categorising and grouping people imaginable, all/most of them are both guilty and victims at the same time.

I wouldn't agree that being born homosexual is in any way related to the kind of camp like choosing to use Linux. These are so wildly different things it doesn't really make sense comparing it. Furthermore, saying 'them' are guilty doesn't really make sense because you can't be guilty because of your existence (eg. being homosexual). However you *can* be targeted as a victim just because of your existence. It's not all same-same.

A lot of people are called homophobes when it's not the case. I'm sure even I am being called that because of that comment, even tho I don't have any problem with them.

First: Having "any problem with them" is not necessarily a requirement for being a homophone. Many people don't even have issues with trans people, as long as they aren't allowed to change their gender marker. But I don't want to insinuate that you're a homophobe and, as far as I can judge the people here, nobody has called or would necessarily call you a homophobe. I think a more fitting term would be ignorant.

Or they are called close-minded, opressors, etc...

Well, yes. But why? Well, put simply: Because you close your mind about the issues of other people, specifically issues that are due to homophobes. It's not enough to be not a racist, we need to be anti-racist. Same thing with tolerance towards queer people. Otherwise you *accept* that these people are discriminated against based on their gender, sexual orientation or whatever. And yes, I'd call these people ignorant.

Furthermore, this might be called "systematic oppression". The key here is really the "systematic" as it means: No specific homophobe actor, but the implicit rules, upbringing and language is demeaning towards those groups, resulting in heavy adverse effects for them. The problem with systematic oppression though is that its difficult to pinpoint. It's not "this person here who made a bad joke" but rather the whole environment. The way to move against this is not by small targeted rules but rather large-scale visibility and cross-society support. Ie.: People going to pride events even if they don't need to for themselves.

It's obviously not always, but you can say the same the other way around, not all straight people insult lgbt people.

Sure, there are assholes in the LGBT land, but I bet you the most insults are heard within the community, not across. But it's not (really) about insults anyway. It's about getting denied your job, pay, medical treatment and basic respect in day-to-day situations. And, as someone who can/does live both lives, the one of the hetero-presenting white cis-guy and the one of the gay, effeminate whatever, I can pretty much attest that not being queer is a privilege in our society. A privilege to not be disrespected, a privilege to *not need to notice* how other people are actually treated.

Same goes with religion, feminism, veganism, etc...

Lumping all *isms together, plus religion, doesn't really make sense on *any* scale.

What I'm trying to say, is that "making up" for past injustices, or counting how much one side slighted the other, is just counterproductive and leads to more conflict... and for what gain? Is that really how we're going to achieve equality and understanding?

No, but I've not seen any pride parade with a counter of "how many past injustices did we have". Any, at all. Not even current injustice more often than not. It was just a place were people *meet* and are "officially" acknowledged to be part of our society.

What you are arguing against is a complete straw-man. This is not what any pride event does, wants to do or whatever. Noone is dragging out your dead grandpas record of beating up gay guys. But: Pretending that things like these weren't (or even aren't) common doesn't help. Ignoring the *fact* that being queer means being fearful when out on the streets does not make any of us safer. But that's the goal: Living in peace.

And yes, pride events help quite a bunch, because it shows all those queer phobic idiots out there that they are, in fact, often the minority. That most people, like you, *don't care* about your neighbor being gay. But, even if this does sound so moot, this is a big message you've got there, and you can shout it out.

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Quoting: einherjar

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: ZlopezSo if I am white heterosexual I can celebrate the pride month?

Why wouldn't you?

Why would you? Honestly, I never understood, why someone should be proud on his gender or sexual orientation. I am white and hetero, but why should I be proud because of that? This is not an achievement to be proud of.

It is kinda the same category of people who say: "I am proud to be german" or "I am proud to be white" --> When I hear things like that, I always think: "Did you achieve that by your own hard work, so that you can be proud of that?"
I don't get it.

Pride events are not about *that* kind of pride. It's not about showing of, they never have been. If you want to read it as that kind of pride, than see it as an ironic quip against all those who are "pride to be white" or "pride to be hetero".

But when we talk about "pride events" it's about basic human pride, or better "dignity". About queer people or PoC not bowing their heads despite being marginalized, talked over and discriminated against. *That* kind of pride: holding your head up high.

EDIT: I can only recommend going to a physical pride event. It's not like a rally of nationalists or "Proud Boys", it's a complete different idea about "pride" and acceptance.

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Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: LeonardK

Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: kuhpunktYes, it doesn't matter what gender etc. you are - but for many people it still matters. Way too many. How do you not get that?

So to fight against this injustice you start creating movements and organizations that are only for some people based on the color, gender, sexual orientation to make the difference even greater?

You mean, if you have an inequality you need to conserve it rather than creating a counterweight? how does that add up?

Anyhow, a "pride month" is not exclusive. How is anything that says "please do not discriminate against people that are different" actually creating a divide?

I'm just trying to say that pointing on the difference is not a good way to remove it from society. It's the opposite. I'm not saying it's bad to be proud who you are, but I don't think anybody needs special month to prove this.

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just seeing all the movies being removed because they are racist. The history being rewritten the same way as in Orwell's 1984. Instead of trying to remove the differences we are trying to point at them more and more.

It's not about the gender, it's not about anything that makes as different. What counts is what joins us together.

This would be all fine and dandy, IF there weren't any defacto differences in society and laws that ARE treating queer people differently. How do you propose we, as a society, should voice that THESE things should change? We need to point at the differences in order to acknowledge them and change them.

Accepting diversity doesn't work by assuming and acting as if everyone is the same, but acknowledging the differences, because we aren't.

And no, no movies "are getting removed" because they don't get as much screentime. If we have newer movies that actually are not racist, why watch those that are? This is not Orwell at all. There are other things that are going far more into that direction.

Asking people to be kind (as you did!) Is no thought-crime. We don't have laws that forbid anyone to be a dick, we want *social* change from bottom-up. This is as least Orwellian as it gets.

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Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: kuhpunktYes, it doesn't matter what gender etc. you are - but for many people it still matters. Way too many. How do you not get that?

So to fight against this injustice you start creating movements and organizations that are only for some people based on the color, gender, sexual orientation to make the difference even greater?

You mean, if you have an inequality you need to conserve it rather than creating a counterweight? how does that add up?

Anyhow, a "pride month" is not exclusive. How is anything that says "please do not discriminate against people that are different" actually creating a divide?

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Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: ZlopezSo if I am white heterosexual I can celebrate the pride month?

Why wouldn't you?

Because I didn't saw anyone in the LGBT... happy, if I say I'm proud white heterosexual. For them I'm racist embracing the culture of enslavers, or at least this is what I see in most media today. People being banned or have to resign from organizations if they take this stance.

But I don't need any special month to be proud about myself. For me it's funny that somebody even needs this :-)

Nobody gets banned for being hetero or white. They might get banned for treating others like shit, but, what's more likely is to get banned because you're *not* hetero or white.

And that's why we need things like these. It's not because of queer people, it's because of homo and transphobia. It's not about saying "I'm homosexual", it's about saying "homophobia has no place here".

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Quoting: Zlopez

Quoting: kuhpunkt

Quoting: ZlopezIt's nice when everybody is talking about diversity and equality and the pride month is only for LGBTQIA+. I just find this funny :-D

What's funny about this? This isn't only for LGBT...

So if I am white heterosexual I can celebrate the pride month?

If its someones birthday, you can still celebrate their birthday. However, it's considered not cool to make it about yourself.

Now, there's no hetero-white pride month, but honestly, the rest of the year is basically hetero-white pride.

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Aaaand there we have those poor suppressed Linux users or whatever. While I'm all for Linux-visibility (well, obviously), there are no noteworthy *personal* attacks against Linux users. But when I (or friends) decloak just as mildly queer hell breaks loose, seriously. Especially in-game. It's just ridiculous to ask for Linux-Pride or even straight-pride.

And no, I'm not talking about small quips or jokes, I'm talking about *real* offensive shit and threats.

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Great to see!

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