Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: manus76People already accusing and condemning Microsoft for it might or might not (want to) do in the future. Bravo. Also liamdawe, julespetrikov has been nothing but polite in his comments so far, we don't have to agree with him but how does 'his attitude stink'? Simply because he doesn't agree with our worldview?

I was quoting Jaycee talking about his attitude, not julespetrikov. Replies come after the quote, not before ;)

For a little history Jaycee has had a lot of outburst in our IRC channel (to the point of being banned more than once) for saying some really idiotic anti-Linux stuff.

Sorry Liam, misunderstanding.
Please, others join the discussion, I get my popcorn ready ;-)

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People already accusing and condemning Microsoft for it might or might not (want to) do in the future. Bravo. Also liamdawe, julespetrikov has been nothing but polite in his comments so far, we don't have to agree with him but how does 'his attitude stink'? Simply because he doesn't agree with our worldview?

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Funny how so many people say 'Too many racing games on linux!' Shows how quickly things changed for us, it wasn't that long ago that we had basically no racing games on our platform at all.
Me personally not a great fan of this type of games, and as others already said some Tomb Raider or RPG would be more interesting...maybe it's time to finally bring Dark Souls to linux :D

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Quoting: Bergerac

Quoting: manus76And with a quote from Adam Smith we might summarise the whole discussion about Apple: '...that I have fresh bread and rolls every morning is not because of the baker's goodwill, it's because of his greed' (or something to that effect, quoted from a failing memory).
I suggest we leave it at that and do not open this usual can of worms, it might turn too political and heated.

That's fine in a competitive market where there are many bakers, but should one baker have a monopoly on the supply of wheat... your bread will most probably be stale, and most --certainly-- a lot more expensive.

And aren't there companies competing with Apple on basically all fronts? Samsung? Microsoft? Google?

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And with a quote from Adam Smith we might summarise the whole discussion about Apple: '...that I have fresh bread and rolls every morning is not because of the baker's goodwill, it's because of his greed' (or something to that effect, quoted from a failing memory).
I suggest we leave it at that and do not open this usual can of worms, it might turn too political and heated.

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: manus76It doesn't work like that: if Metal and DX bring Apple and MS money (and they do) then that's all that counts.

For crooks yes, goals always justify the means. Wasn't that the whole point of the discussion above (in the context of lock-in)? We aren't arguing really.

Probably, I just don't consider them crooks. Anyway thx for the civilised and interesting discussion, let's agree to disagree, move on and enjoy the glorious world of linux gaming, cheers :-)

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: manus76So should Apple (and Microsoft) just say: 'Listen guys, we abandon Metal (or DX11/12 in the case of MS) and support Vulkan.

Yes, same as Adobe recently did with Flash, saying they will abandon it, and will support HTML (common open standard). MS kind of officially didn't do it with ActiveX and Silverlight, but de-facto did by supporting modern HTML in IE / Edge. I don't see why graphics need to be any worse in this sense. That would be competing on merit (let them make their systems better than the rest, instead of forcing lock-in through tools).

Admittedly, all that happened because HTML won, and balkanized lock-in lost in the browser wars. In graphics situation is far from healthy, with lock-in being very dominant, like early days of the Web with "best viewed in IE" and the like.

It doesn't work like that: if Metal and DX bring Apple and MS money (and they do) then that's all that counts. Any lofty ideas about openness, getting rid of lock-in etc. are irrelevant at that point. You think abandonig flash by adobe was dictated by the company's goodwill and benevolence? The same with other examples, i'm pretty sure it's all dictated by economy and nothing else.

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: manus76So should Apple (and Microsoft) just say: 'Listen guys, we abandon Metal (or DX11/12 in the case of MS) and support Vulkan. That means if you primiarily game you won't need to use our OS, and hardware either, just go with linux'. Does that make sense for a commercial entity to even consider such a thing?

Well, the theory of capitalist competition is that people use one product over another because it works better, has nicer features, is cheaper and whatnot. That's what's supposed to be good about it--that this competition stuff will result in good cheap products. If that's not how capitalism really works I don't have a duty to defend its dysfunction. Traditionally the supposed remedy was laws enforcing real competition and disallowing various kinds of anticompetitive behaviour--including, but not limited to, antitrust laws. Again, if the political climate is such that passing or enforcing such laws is impossible, then that's how it is--but if there ought to be a law, then surely one can at least complain.
And if capitalism never actually does the stuff it's supposed to do, if it doesn't "make sense for a commercial entity to even consider such a thing" as actual competition by creating better products rather than by erecting barriers to entry, that doesn't mean I should rearrange my notions of what's OK to include stuff that's harmful, it means I should start questioning the virtues of a system that does not work as advertised.

Not a personal attack, more an admission of my own failing (and probably dementia): even though I studied English and thought I was pretty competent at it, I haven't understood anything above.

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So should Apple (and Microsoft) just say: 'Listen guys, we abandon Metal (or DX11/12 in the case of MS) and support Vulkan. That means if you primiarily game you won't need to use our OS, and hardware either, just go with linux'. Does that make sense for a commercial entity to even consider such a thing?

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I guess that's where we disagree on a deeper level: Apple (and other companies) don't have the luxury linux has. Linux doesn't have shareholders and doesn't have to produce quarterly figures, Apple does. From their perspective they are doing everything right, and whether we like it or not it is all driven by profit and greed. Not an ideal situation but no other system has been shown to work as effectively as this one.

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