Is the routing similar to the TCP protocol like it was in the original settlers? If so then I really would be interested in it.

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Quoting: GuestExactly, working on that now. Learning LibreOffice Calc graph making in order to graph out Linux games using data from Steam.

I am looking forward to that.

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Quoting: liamdawe

Quoting: GuestIt's been almost a year since Proton came out (August 2018).
Where is this fabled growth in market share? Did we even reach 1% of Steam users?
The only thing Proton is doing is strengthening the position of Direct X as the only viable APIs in PC games development, no need for SDL, Vulkan and so on... there is Proton after all!

A few things to note, Proton has been "out" for nearly a year, but it's still very much hidden on Steam. Unless you're going looking for it, you don't really know it exists. It still has a lot of work ahead of it right now, it's early days. If anyone seriously expected a shift in behaviour in less than a year, they're not being realistic in any way.

As for your other bits, well, Vulkan is needed for a big part of Proton remember, so that makes no sense. SDL is also used a lot outside of Linux FYI.

Most Windows users including gamers probably never heard of it, and a lot of Linux users probably neither. Most Linux users do not game, but there probably also still are a lot of dual booters that think you can not have a good gaming experience on Linux base on what they hear and read and maybe tried years ago.

But Proton has a very high visibility in the Linux gamer community, so there is a problem if Proton changes Linux gamers behaviour to buy a lot less Linux games. I do not know if that actually is the case, so I would like to know how Linux developers and publishers have experienced this the last year.

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: GuestI've said it before and I will say it again, "no tux no bucks" does more harm than good and this shows why

No Tux No Bux is exactly what we need more of so that we get more Linux support. We want to be Linux gamers and help the Linux support ecosystem, not Windows gamers helping the Windows support ecosystem.

The cold hard truth is that devs will not support linux until the market grows. You think they support Windows because they like Windows? Nope, they support it because that is where the users are. Devs won't develop for linux because there are not enough users, users will not move to linux because that is not where the games they want to play are. Emulation and compatibility layers were always the best hope for linux gaming

No, the cold hard truth is supply and demand, which means Linux support depends on gamers demanding it, and if Proton hurts gamers demanding it rather than encouraging more of that demand due to more gamers switching to Linux and then demanding it, then Proton is hurting more than helping.

If the demand for Linux support overall decreases, then there will be fewer and fewer games with Linux support, and Microsoft wins. We don't want Microsoft's APIs being used more, we want them being used less, and we want developers providing us with more support not less.

Thats not how economics works. Why would any business create a product for a market that does not exist or is irrelevant in terms of the size of that market? Businesses always look at the size of the market and how much they could possibly get in sales vs the cost of servicing that market. The truth is for many game devs, the outgoings vs projected revenue isn't worth it. We have to show them that the market exists. The only metrics that really matter are sales metrics

Yes the sales are important, and we have for years now seen a lot of games been published that have Linux support, off course a lot a crap, or in a genre that a given gamer does not like, but there also have been a lot of really good games.
The question is will we keep getting good games we like, and we should not count on that a compatibility layer of a moving target which Windows is will be compatible for new releases.
There is the Epic store, and the fear that some think drove Valve to support Linux, that Microsoft will succeed to change Windows into a walled garden with the Windows store or something else.

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Quoting: SalvatosThis is going in circles. Kind of like Linux gaming before Proton :P

Snip ---

We're dealing with proprietary software here anyway. Whether it's native or not makes little difference as long as it's properly supported. If a dev wants to support a compatibility layer rather than a full port, I say go for it. As long as we have a promise of support, we're not so much of an afterthought anymore. And then if our numbers continue to grow, there will be incentive to make sure our experience is on par with other platforms, and if that implies an actual port or changing middleware, we'll be more likely to get it.

Is there actually any game where the developer/publisher have said they will support Proton? I have not read about that, but seen some examples of Developers saying that Linux users just should use Proton since other users reported it works well.
I do not consider that support, but if they actually say they will test any patches under Proton to make sure it still works then I would consider it as support.

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I agree more or less with Swiftpaw.

Proton and wine in general is good to play games you already have that only have a Windows version but no Linux version.
But the demand for Linux games is shown by us buying and playing games on Linux, and if we want support then we should buy games that support Linux.

If a developer/publisher states that they officially support Proton, similar to that we also have seen wine wrapped games in the past, then I would maybe buy the game if I also am interested in it.

But buying Windows games with Steam on proton and then playing it without support is questionable. There have been numerous example of games that work for a while and then suddenly not any more. Most of the times because of anticheats.

So I will not buy any new game that does not have a Linux version, sometimes I make an exception of old games that work well in wine/proton or that have a open source engine reimplementation. So I am not 100% no Tux no bux. But I have mainly bought Linux games for over 5 years now, getting some windows games due to bundles or as giveaways.

I am a big fan of Dirt Rally, and have not bought Dirt Rally 2 yet since I still hope that there will be a Feral port, but who knows if that ever will come. For now I still enjoy Dirt Rally, and also Dirt 4 but its different and I like Dirt Rally more.
Sooner or later I will get Dirt Rally 2, but if its the windows version then first after a year or more and on a steap discount.

Regarding the market demand try to see it as this:

We are approximately 1 million Linux Steam users (I do not have en exact number but these where put out previously based on the percentage and overall Steam users reported by Valve.)

Just to have example number lets say that each user buys for 20€ a year on Steam, some buy for a lot more, but there are also people that only play free to play games.

That would be a market value of 20 million €

Lets say we have got 200k more users due to proton and that is good, but proton probably also has an effect on users already gaming on Linux. So now Linux users spend 10€ for Linux games (games with Linux supported on the store) and 10€ for Windows games. So Windows sales will be reported as Linux sales, but overall the market value for Linux supported games will then be 12 million € so a big drop. (I have no idea how much an average Linux gamer spends, so those numbers are made up, I myself spend a lot more.)

This is why we fear that Proton will lower demand for Linux games. Getting some more numbers will help to understand where we stand.

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Quoting: eldakingWell, this was announced faster than I thought, but is exactly what I expected: 19.10 will make the change, but for 20.04 they will revert to the "consolidated" system.

That is not how I understand it. They are writing:

Thanks to the huge amount of feedback this weekend from gamers, Ubuntu Studio, and the WINE community, we will change our plan and build selected 32-bit i386 packages for Ubuntu 19.10 and 20.04 LTS.

We will put in place a community process to determine which 32-bit packages are needed to support legacy software, and can add to that list post-release if we miss something that is needed.

So they change it in 19.10 and continue forward with at least 20.04 with the select packages build for 32bit.
That is how they do major distribution wide changes, they roll out before the LTS, and may be reverted for the LTS. Like for example having Wayland as default in 17.10 where 18.04 switched back to xorg as default.

Since the also have a process to add more packages after release I see no reason they would reverse this for 20.04

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Quoting: ShmerlI'd classify it as too little, too late. Trust is pretty much gone. And I doubt anyone would recommend Ubuntu for gaming after this.

Too little would be too just continue to build the whole distribution in 32 bit. Now the actual needed libraries and programs will be identified so that better future proof solutions.
Or to continue with their plans as announced where there was way to many problems and to little time for the 19.10 and 20.04 release.

My trust in them increased by their new plan.

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Quoting: Patola

Quoting: GuestI have no idea how you formed this opinion of Canonical.

Slowly, during the years. I follow their mailing lists for more than a decade now. I've witnessed their transformation.

Quoting: GuestI can see why they want to remove 32 bit libs because it's a ton of work. They obviously didn't think it through, figured out the impact and are trying to rectify it. What else do you want them to do that they are not doing?

No, they are not trying to rectify it. They are trying to do damage control for that backwards decision. And they are clear in that they are still going to abandon 32 bits.

I can not trust a distro which will have an undetermined process to decide which apps are worthy or not to continue with 32-bit support. What if they drop support exactly for that application I need to use? So it's either all of them, or I'm out. So, I'm out.

What 32bit apps from the distribution apart from 32bit wine and steam will you need? It will mostly be some libraries for programs outside of the repositories and they stated that it will be community determined which packages to build in 32 bit and that new ones also can be added after release.

If you find a package download the source package and build it, its only a few commands. Then wishlist it and tell your own build works, or that it doesnt and file a bugreport.

Edit: with downloading the source I mean the source deb, not unpackaged from upstream. The different architectures are build from the same source package, so that will be available, whether Ubuntu already ships the 32bit package or not.

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Now they actually change their plans: https://ubuntu.com/blog/statement-on-32-bit-i386-packages-for-ubuntu-19-10-and-20-04-lts [External Link]

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