Quoting: AsciiWolf

Quoting: scaineSo it's outdated and broken? That would be odd, since I'm using it every day.

It's hopefully not that broken since I helped fix the worst parts for 20.04, but it's still problematic and outdated when compared to the official deb package from Valve. For example the version in LTS 20.04 is from March 2020 and was never updated[1].

[1] https://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/multiverse/s/steam/steam_1.0.0.61-2ubuntu3/changelog

Quoting: F.UltraNot to mention that the steam package is just a shim that downloads the real installer from Valve.

Except that it also has to handle dependencies (that change with time, especially with Pressure Vessel and VR stuff), ship udev rules for VR/controllers and do other things.

Yes I forgot about the udev rules for the controllers! I do think that the steam package should be redone completely as a pure shim that just downloads the valve-hosted .deb and run that.

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Quoting: scaine

Quoting: AsciiWolfSteam, for example. There were many problems with that package, I helped solve some of them (in collaboration with other Ubuntu community volunteers), but it was really pain in the arse and the package is still regularly broken and outdated.

So it's outdated and broken? That would be odd, since I'm using it every day.

Not to mention that the steam package is just a shim that downloads the real installer from Valve.

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Quoting: kaktuspalme

Quoting: F.UltraOr rather, not being able to uninstall the desktop would of course work but then we no longer can uninstall the desktop which removes the power that Linux gives you.

I agree, but in Linux we have the freedom to choose whichever distribution we like. But distributions focused on average users should be "non-breakable" and thus maybe even limit your freedom. Personally I wouldn't like to use such a distribution but I would recommend such a distribution for the average user.

Ah ok, yes you might be on to something here. A distro specifically for for Windows refugees!

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Quoting: kaktuspalme

Quoting: TheSHEEEPStuff like that should be there for people who are interested in digging deeper, but should by no means be a requirement for the average user (unless you aim at techies as your average user).

I actually think that Linux is quite good with real noobs but "bad" for above average computer users. I mean those users who download all sorts of software on Windows but at the same time don't know really how it all works. Linux distros should improve for those types of users.

Question is if that is even possible to do. The problem with those guys is that they do just like Linus and "warning blablalba, who cares" and even a "I force you you type out do as I say!" don't stop then what on earth would?

Or rather, not being able to uninstall the desktop would of course work but then we no longer can uninstall the desktop which removes the power that Linux gives you.

In reality we can never be "Windows but nice", we are simply a completely different system. That said I do think that all the talk about the terminal is exaggerated, for 99% or perhaps even 100% of the cases where people think that they have to use the terminal they can use the GUI, it's just that it's far easier to write a guide that does "nano /etc/whatever.config" than "open the file manager, click back, click on etc, right klick on whatever.config and select "open with another application" then select text editor from the list and so on and on.

I mean there's a reason why Linux have text guides while Windows users have to look at YouTube videos for the same content.

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Quoting: TheRiddickIt's pretty embarrassing for System76 and they should reach out to Linus and work with him to get him to give it another try. Thought I think Linus has committed to Manjaro, lol. Now Manjaro devs are probably pretty nervous!

Good idea but too late unfortunately, the challenge ended a while back.

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: F.UltraNot sure how Pop handles this but the full ISO from Debian and Ubuntu contains packages so until you do "apt update" you can install the older versions of packages from the disc, this is done in case you don't have Internet access.

True, but apt can already use the cached list if it can't contact particular online repository servers. So in the case of no Internet access it would simply try the update, not connect, and then use the existing list.

True, and if I'm not mistaken Ubuntu since 20.04 (or perhaps earlier) does an automatic update during the install process.

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: F.UltraI just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

It lets me do anything on any of my computers from my phone without getting out of bed.

The change to apt that might make a difference (there's no sufficient hurdle that they could have put in front of someone like Linus to prevent this issue) would be to check when the last update was run before installing anything: if the package list is too old (say, if it hasn't been refreshed that day) then automatically update it before trying to install anything. I think Manjaro does something like that? There's no reason why it would be desirable for the package list to be stale, and people aren't generally on dial-up any more, so ensure that the list of versions and dependencies is fresh.

Not sure how Pop handles this but the full ISO from Debian and Ubuntu contains packages so until you do "apt update" you can install the older versions of packages from the disc, this is done in case you don't have Internet access.

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Quoting: CatKiller

Quoting: F.UltraBut there are more things to come

On the bright side, after they recorded the third video Linus said that once he'd settled in it was actually really easy to use, and Luke has switched his work laptop to Linux - not as part of the challenge, just because he prefers it for getting things done.

And I just saw one of their small clips where they praised the printer support in Linux!

I just wish they would get out of their "nobody should ever have to use the terminal mindset. The terminal is perhaps the thing that I love the most about Linux...

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Quoting: Purple Library GuyThe thing we should keep in mind is this: Linus owes us nothing.
There he is, he has a stated goal of setting up a Linux desktop and getting to the point of running a game on Steam. He installs a Linux desktop, tries to install Steam, and it won't, and he tries, not very astutely, to install Steam a different way, and that last attempt borks his install.
And he is in the entertainment business, and has already mused publicly about the rough nature of the arc he expects: Episode 1, pissed off with things being different and being unable to make things work; Episode 2, things feeling much better, gotten used to it; Episode 3, overall conclusions and stuff. Along those lines.

And Pop!OS hands him on a silver platter this decidedly entertaining "not working" stuff at the core of his stated goal, to rant about entertainingly. What's he supposed to do, shut up about it? Bend over backwards to tone his response down to be more boring?

Really, he doesn't owe us that. He's not our publicist. We can bitch that he should have done stuff differently, but the fact remains that if Steam had just installed properly in the first place, as it should have, it would have been a quite different video.

Agreed, but I still think that he can be criticized. I've yet to see anyone crucifying him, but then I'm not on reddit so I can't speak for any possible clowns there.

But there are more things to come, e.g in coming videos he will claim that it's not possible to handle root folders using the file manager in Manjaro (and that is a possibility, I don't know since I don't use Manjaro and it works just fine with Nautilus in Ubuntu) so he have a whole segment about how horrible it is that Linux now forces him to use the terminal to install a plugin for OBS (and apparently he couldn't find that OBS also looks in ~/.config/obs-studio/plugins so he wouldn't even need to be root in the first place even though a simple google would have told that [I mean I found out and I have never used OBS in my life, but then my experience with Linux told me that it probably would look in a place like .config or .local]).

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Quoting: Guest

Quoting: F.Ultra

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Tuxee

Quoting: GuestThe fact this slipped through System 76's internal testing is absolutely inexcusable!

Also, who actually ignores warning messages and proceeds regardless?

What other options does he have as an "uninformed user"? You get the information that some packages are being removed. So? Then he would have to know what this packages are actually good for. And as already mentioned: He had no other option than to hit "y" if he wanted Steam.

He could have asked Anthony, but being stubborn, didn't.

I get the impression Linus is not as clueless as he makes out and ultimately manipulated his viewers.

Well that part was actually part of their "challenge" in that they should approach it as "normies" and not as some one that have instant access to an expert.

"Normies" don't ask for help when they're uncertain about things? Because that sounds counter-intuitive.

They do but perhaps they don't have an expert at the level of Anthony nearby and they stated beforehand that they would not use him since it would be "unfair". And I also think that we come to the LTT videos a bit from the wrong angle, their idea with the series is not to determine if Linux works or not but as a challenge for Linus and Luke to see if they both can stand using exclusively Linux for a whole month.

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