Quoting: Eike

Quoting: SatoruAgain same thing. Gamers aren't their customers. Therefore Wine users aren't either. People 'in the cloud' don't use Wine. So they don't care what happens to Wine.

WINE is useful for way more than games. TBH, I can hardly imagine their customers don't need it. Having a Linux infrastructure but being able to run that one Windows program the company needs, but the Fortran ;-) code is gone, does sound valuable to me.

While Wine can be used for stuff other than games, i'd say the majority of users who use it, generally are doing so for gaming. Working for gaming, has a 'side effect' so to speak of it working for other stuff. But I link Wine's primary focus for the group itself is basically gaming

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Quoting: chancho_zombieexactly that's the point, windows didn't drop 32bits, but once they said that from now on all apps should be UWP (universal windows platform) they had a major backslash and they decided to not implement it. If MS had this problem, it is clear that ubuntu has to backpedal,.

Maybe but I'm pretty sure I know why MS had ot back off on their plan. And it can be summed up with 3 letters

SAP

Why do I think this? History lesson. Back when IE was 'the thing' they were sued by a patent troll Eolas for some nonsense with ActiveX controls and whatever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eolas#Patents [External Link]

MS lost and had to roll out an IE patch that forced users to click on an ActiveX control to activate it. That's it. Ok not a big deal right? I mean sorta annoying but most websites can patch that out or something. Note MS FORCED this on companies. It was not optional. This also came out on the heels of the IloveU virus wiping out companies, meaning companies were also highly sensitive to keeping IE up to date than they would have been previously.

The problem? Most companies run SAP. And if you use SAP, EVERY SINGLE THING on the page is an individual ActiveX control. That means to use anything in SAP, you have to click DOZENS of fields and accept ActiveX. You have to do this on EVERY SINGLE PAGE YOU LOAD. Imagine opening an Excel spreadsheet and every time you clicked a cell you were given a prompt to "do you want to actually use this cell". Every, single, time. Imagine a Word document that gave a pop up "do you want to use punctuation" every time you pressed "." You can imagine this was not good for SAP customers.

The only solution? UPgrade to the latest SAP version. Now let me tell you how companies upgrade SAP. If you wanted to add a comma to a page, you'd probably spend 6 months in development, testing, approval for production, and the rollout to every server and computer. A major SAP revision upgrade could easily be 1-2 YEARS before a desktop would see that. This MS patch was rolling out in a few months and was mandatory and there was no solution.

Well there was no solution if you were a plebeian company.

If you were a Fortune 10. Yes Fortune 10 MS customer, then you were on a secret DAILY conference call about this. Where engineers/IT/etc were SCREAMING at Microsoft. Again a major SAP revision, if you threw every single resource in a company at this into a sweatshop and worked them 80 hours a week, you 'might' get it done in a year. There was no way any of these giant companies could possibly roll this out in the timeframe MS said they needed to. Also remember the back drop of IloveU was also there, so you couldn't just 'leave IE unpatched for 1-2 years' like most organizations did before.

So the solution was, you mega giant Fortune 10 companies, that give MS more money than god every day in licensing, get a 'secret' patch that updates IE from a security standpoint but DOES NOT prompt for ActiveX controls.

SO when MS tried to make UWP 'the future', the problem was that SAP didn't work with UWP and because most SAP implementations were ultra complex rats nests of inter-dependencies, there was a zero percent chance you could get SAP to work with UWP. So much stuff, literally everything, fed into SAP. 3rd party software had to integrate into it, feed it information. Custom hardware had to work with it and feed it data. etc. None of that stuff was ever going to work with the way UWP was designed. UWP was a non starter because SAP HAS TO WORK.

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Quoting: Eike

Quoting: SatoruThey didn't miss it

They dont care

Gamers are not their customers.

I get that (though I'm not sure it's clever to p**s off too many people). But what about WINE users...?

Again same thing. Gamers aren't their customers. Therefore Wine users aren't either. People 'in the cloud' don't use Wine. So they don't care what happens to Wine.

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Quoting: Luke_NukemI just purged all *386 libs from my install, including Steam. Then installed Steam via flatpak...

No. Issues. At. All.

But this doesn't solve HumbleBumble or GOG. Though I do seem to recall and automated GOG->flatpak creator?

Note steam comes with its own libs so its going to work regardless

Thatissn't the problem. you can duct tape and bubble gum steam to work. Steam can easily get a 64-bit client if they really wanted, since they already have one for Macs.

Getting the steam client to run isnt the problem

its all the downstream games that wont work that aren't complied for 64-bit. This will cause confusion when you see a game in your library, install it, and the game implodes on you. While game B somehow works. But Game C doesn't? And neither does Game D. Oh yeah and Proton also no lnoger works, so why does the steam client list those. Now you have a UI/UX nightmare, that applies to a SINGLE distro only.

SO you could

1) make all these bizarre exceptions in the UI/UX for one distro
2) abandon the distro as unsupported and go to literally any other distro where this problem doesnt exist

Ubuntu isn't Apple or Microsoft. They don't have the clout to force developers to 'make things their way'. There are a plethora of equivalent options available and there's no incentive to hack together a broken experience, when you can just dump them and tell your users to use literally any other distro on the planet and everything on steam will work.

GOG has its own problems where they techncally have Linux games, but their main push on the client side Galaxy hasn't had a Linux option in 4 years and 2.0 doesnt seem to be addressing this either. Epic also has no Linux client for users who have games on Epic that have Linux version on STeam. Say what you will about Steam, but Steam is the only one actually serious about gaming on Linux and putting money where their mouth is via Vulkan, Wine/Proton, and now KDE.

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Quoting: sub

Quoting: liamdaweSounds like Wine still won't work: https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/i386-architecture-will-be-dropped-starting-with-eoan-ubuntu-19-10/11263/121?u=liamdawe [External Link]

Good read, Liam.

How can the pros at Canonical miss THIS?
Shouldn't they know about the rough design and dependencies of one of their most prominent software packages?
I mean, dropping Wine isn't something they'd consider a good move for sure.

*facepalm*

They didn't miss it

They dont care

Gamers are not their customers. Thus their needs are moot. They don't care if Wine doesn't run. They don't care if steam doesn't run (though functionally steam could easily get a 64-bit client out, it woudl just mean extra filtering of games that aren't compiled for 64-bit being filtered on the library side, oh and Proton basically not working anymore. But Valve can get a working 64-bit client that works with 64-bit compiled Linux games)

They know the problem. They just don't care.

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Quoting: GustyGhostThe problem is not 100% Canonical's decision. Consider also Valve's failure to build Steam for amd64, and the games industry (in general).

You do realize how ignorant this is right?

1) Steam already has 64-bit installers for steam. the osx version of steam is already 64-bit.
2) Steam sells and distributes GAMES. Games that, well what do you know, may not have 64-bit executable. Because you know some games were made years ago? when it wasn't a big deal to make a 32bit exe
3) Steam also supports wine/proton to get more windows games into linux. wine needs 32-bit libraries because again, many windows games are 32-bit

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Quoting: vectorI say this tongue-in-cheek so don't flame me, but perhaps Ubuntu would like to deprecate support for OpenGL as well; after all, Apple is deprecating OpenGL support :P

At least Apple

1) CLEARLY communicated that 32-bit and OpenGL was deprecated YEARS in advance
2) Did not hem and haw about 'well maybe we'll get rid of it in 20.04'
3) CLEARLY made an OS update that bugged users about their apps potentially not working in future releases
4) Only after 2-3 years of such updates, notification, etc is 32-bit support finally ending with OSX Catalina
5) OpenGL was declared deprecated last year, it still is not offically dead even in Catalina. yes its likely soon, but Apple has been screaming about converting to Metal for years. to the point where Aspyr and Feral back ported their entire steam library to Metal last year

Canonical's plan

1) "You have 4 months sorry!"

If Canonical is going to copy all of Apple's bad decisions, then they should also copy the part where Apple spent YEARS clearly communicating to both devs and users, with popups and warning. As opposed to dropping a bomb on people with 4 months notice, and then when users upgrade to 19.10 in 4 months suddenly 50% of the Linux games will stop working and Proton/Wine also dies with it.

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Quoting: GuestHmm, Ubuntu HAS to backpedal, this would hurt the whole Linux ecosystem. For most people Linux = Ubuntu.

This is highly unlikely given that they really really dont care about their own product

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Quoting: Shmerl

Quoting: GuestAlan pope of Canonical tried a few GoG games on 64 bits only 19.10 and guess what ? It is not going well.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Trying-GOG-Games-64-bit-Ubuntu [External Link]

Heh, what did they expect? A lot of older games on GOG are 32-bit. Both native and Wine.

I think given the post, that he was trying to assess the comments that "Wine is fine"

I did this because there’s been a couple of assertions made:

That games ship their own required libs and will likely work
That WINE64 is sufficient for playing Windows games

In essence because people (not sure what clueless dolts were saying this) were making said claims he went out and tested those claims.

In a shock to literally no one, it was a trainwreck

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SO Ubuntu has jumped the shark and decided to become the Apple of the Linux world

Hey Ubuntu, you know why Apple is popular? Yeah its not because they're dropping 32-bit. Its also not because they're dropping OpenGL. Do you think imitating all the BAD stuff Apple does is going to make Ubuntu better?

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