Quoting: wvstolzing

Quoting: GuestOh and while it's nice and all to have DOOM II, Ultimate DOOM and Quake on that list, some great source ports already natively support linux, presumably to use a source port this way would involve using a windows version of said source port.. But what would be the point in that? :p

To be honest, it seems to me that including those titles in the list has no point other than making it look a little longer.
I'd like to think that a Linux user interested in playing DOOM....

Actually, that DOOM is Doom(2016). DOOM II is the original. From what I can tell, I'm not really certain that Valve planned to release this yet, but that when word broke out they just kinda bit the bullet knowing that the games list isn't exactly impressive, yet. Steam itself didn't run right at launch back in 2004 to the point where I was sure it would fail, but here we are and it's our most important weapon to liberate people from Microsoft. Give them a little time and i think that list will grow and grow and grow.

Just random testing of my available titles I revealed one working perfectly and all others either not starting at all(most common) or starting with serious issues.

I fired up the original FEAR. It just ran. All the graphics setting worked. Kind of comically, I fired up RWBY: Grim Eclipse and it all worked until I started a level and no character models displayed. I could see Pyrra's sword and shield but not her or any grim. Far Cry 2 booted and ran with Minecraft-like trees until I turned up the graphics settings and it crashed and wouldn't run after that. Plus it hung up during the uninstall a couple of times. Was going to try Alan Wake this morning but when I woke and turned on the system and tried to run Steam, I got this :

Running Steam on fedora 28 64-bit
STEAM_RUNTIME is enabled automatically
Pins up-to-date!
ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/$LIB/libgpg-error.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded (cannot open shared object file): ignored.
ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib64/libjemalloc.so.2' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded (wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64): ignored.

Please note, there was a Breakpad install exception and about twenty more lines of errors before I reinstalled a few libraries. I tried to install World of Warships and clearing it out might have caused this. Not sure.

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For people still moaning about native ports, WE'RE NOT THERE YET.

For anything that's already up on Steam and GoG for Windows-only, you can write it off, >99% chance it will never be ported. Hell, some Linux ports get delisted after their release like Banner Saga and the Penny Arcade 1&2 games. WINE is the only way we get access to those games short of a dual boot heresy, and this sure looks like it's going to be the best version of WINE for gaming. And don't expect that situation to change for at least five years.

Five years plus? I would put money on the PS5 using Vulkan, and we're going to benefit from that tremendously. Vulkan streamlines the whitelisting for Steam Play. That leads to more Windows titles that just work with Steam Play on launch day. GoG can get in on this, too, as Valve is open sourcing it all. Linux user base expands as Microsoft continues to push the smarter ones our way. We build our user base to first rival Apple, and then exceed Apple.

Ten years on AAA titles are natively ported to Windows and Linux with Apple support waning as it's userbase has finally grown tired of paying the Apple tax on hardware that they can't upgrade and so stop buying Apple computers altogether. And yes, I said TEN YEARS because that's how long this is going to take.

As someone that had a NiB Commodore 64 as a first PC, let me assure you kids, this sort of shift takes time. It's a marathon kids, and that loud bang you just heard was a STARTER pistol.

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Quoting: GuestSo, while I can see how Valve thinks this is a good thing for getting games on Linux, and getting gamers over to Linux, it in turn has a big impact to those of us who were bringing games over to Linux officially. I don't see how Proton is going to help us with the big issue of getting publishers interested in Linux as a platform... in fact, I see it doing the opposite.

Gonna have to disagree. This is the chicken versus egg problem and it has to be sorted out one way or another. Valve and GoG can either get together and require linux ports of every new title OR they could go this route. Valve has sunk a bunch of money into this to provide a way out for them that want it, so it's rather obvious that Valve is favoring Linux. In the short term yes, this is going to hurt the odds of Linux ports to major titles, but at the same time it incentivises an increase in use of Vulkan as that makes it easy to run in PROTON. In the long term that grows the user base, and a large user base gets catered to.

We will get one of two outcomes here. 1)We will either get a large enough user base that big devs shift their first their APIs to be more friendly with PROTON and then a shift to native ports to avoid user experience issues.

2) PROTON plays all the games seamlessly from Steam, and eventually is so good that it doesn't matter whether we get a port or not.

The results are the same for practical purposes.

Now that is for new titles going forward, but what about Steam's existing library of titles that WILL NEVER GET A LINUX PORT? Do you think Ubisoft is gonna hand a Feral a contract top port Assassin's Creed and Far Cry? How about EA for anybody that feels like playing Crysis? A whole bunch of my games on Steam don't even work with WINE like Sleeping Dogs, but this push by Valve has the best chance of fixing that.

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Something that I noticed on the page that I found very telling:

Q: I'm a developer; I wasn't planning on targeting Linux, how can I best leverage the new Steam Play?

We recommend you target Vulkan natively in order to offer the best possible performance on all platforms, or at least offer it as an option if possible. It's also a good idea to avoid any invasive third-party DRM middleware, as they sometimes prevent compatibility features from working as intended.

So Vulkan is definitely our way forward. Valve is saying as much, if you want to Linux sales without having to port, go with Vulkan. And that is an absolutely terrific first step. The cost difference in porting a DirectX game to Linux versus a Vulkan title is night and day because there's just so much less to do on the Vulkan game. That's our foot in the door.

As for the Steam Play Beta client, it's glitchy. Right now the storefront won't display. Most of the games Aren't working yet. Installing Alan Wake as I type this.

Not Working for Me:
Far Cry 2(buggy but started on with display options all turned down to low. Also didn't want to uninstall)
Far Cry 3
Batman Arkham Asylum GOTY

Working:
F.E.A.R.(flawless)

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Quoting: ScooptaRight now my Linux system doesn't have to emulate a Windows one to play games(except AAA ports). That's the future that scares me. I didn't leave Windows just to emulate it on Linux. Although maybe you do have a point. Maybe emulating windows is just an easy way to bootstrap Linux gaming. Maybe after it becomes reasonably popular the emulation will go away and we'll get real Linux natives. Being an after thought doesn't scare me, being an after thought where wine is the solution does.

Valve launched it today in the Steam Beta client. It's seamless, you check a box in the Steam Play settings and your entire Windows library is theoretically playable on Linux. It hasn't worked on a single game that I've tried it on yet. I bought Half Life 2 on release day in 2004 along with Vampire the Masquerade:Bloodlines. I was one of the people who couldn't play HL2 for weeks on release do to a bug. I ended up finding the RAZOR1911 version and playing that. Didn't bother with steam again until The Black Box promo for buying an ATI 1950XT. Not a single issue, not one, and haven't bothered pirating since. This will mirror that I imagine. In a few months time most of the big titles will just work.

There are two outcomes possible from this since Valve has already sunk two years of funding into it and doesn't look likely to stop anytime soon:

1) Valve is clearly pushing Vulkan and even mentioned specifically in the new faq on Steam Play that a developer looking to support this can add a Vulkan rendering option to maximize the chances of smooth compatibility. This will lead to more Vulkan titles. If the PS5 ends up using Vulkan we're set. That's the end of DirectX's dominance on anything other than the Xbox, and the end of WINE slowing down framerates because it can offload the entire graphics workload to the Linux Vulkan drivers without needing to do anything itself. We just keep running new Windows games seamlessly via WINE+PROTON+DXVK without even having to bother to configure any of it getting basically native performance with Vulkan titles. This is the WORST CASE SCENARIO, and it doesn't exactly suck.

2)This cascades. As soon as the current hotness games land with day one Steam Play support Linux starts siphoning off gamers that don't want to have anything to do with Microsoft. And Valve has stated that the two week rule is in effect for this - ie, Steam counts it as a Linux sale if you play the game in Linux for two weeks. Our user base climbs to about what Apple has(maybe ten percent), and then we start getting the same native ports that Apple does. That's when the snowballing really starts. This is dream scenario.

This NEEDED to happen. We NEED to build the user base and this is the only way to do it. Valve is going against Microsoft massively by doing this, fyi. Valve is quite literally funding an escape route from Microsoft to an OS that Valve doesn't even control and I don't see how we can thank them enough for that.

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I'm tempted to install DOOM even though I know my Phenom II won't run it very very well, even with the 1060. It's on my list to play after I get my Ryzen2 rig built along with the most recent Deus Ex.

So far I've tried Batman Arkham Asylum GOTY and Far Cry 3 and neither of them worked. I had Far Cry 3 running on regular WINE a few weeks ago.

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Quoting: ScooptaI personally hope this isn't true. Maybe it's just me but I personally think it'll be a dark day in the Linux world when devs target Windows and just expect wine or some other compatibility layer to be used.

You mean right now? Because that's what we have. Right now. This world you're worried about where Linux is an afterthought if it's thought about at all is the world we have right now.

We've hit the chicken-egg problem head on. Valve isn't going to force devs to cater to us. They won't even force devs to use Vulkan which would make the WINE experience a whole lot nicer. But what they will do is spend their own resources to make their catalog available to us. It's very likely that DXVK is actually a Valve project, and it's open nature is Valve using us to beta for them. Happy to do it. More than happy if this eventually makes Steam's Windows catalog easily accessible to new users, and frankly, to me because WINE is a hassle.

I know it's not FOSS, but without any hyperbole, Valve doing this could be the most important computer news story of the entire decade because if Valve really does kick over this domino it means the eventual end of Microsoft's dominance because it means for the first time normies will have a real alternative to Windows. GAMERS will have an alternative to Windows. Do you look out and see a lot of love for Microsoft? I don't. I see a lot of people that want Windows without Microsoft there to ruin it. In other words, there are a lot of people that would be okay switching to Mint Cinnamon if they had easy access to the all the stuff they care about on Windows. Eye on the prize.

We can worry about Saint Stallman's blessings after we're free of Redmond.

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For everyone worried about WINE making companies think Linux ports are unnecessary, newsflash we already have that even without WINE. That's our reality right now, today.

Guys the industry genuinely doesn't think anything of Linux for all the same reasons everybody else discounts it. "It's too hard to use" even though in Ubuntu/Mint you can install update, and even change graphics drivers without ever using a command line. So Linux is considered the exclusive domain of hi-IQ nerds that don't add up to enough sales to even worry about.

And that's where Microsoft is actually going to be a big help right now. Confused?

The reason SteamOS even exists, the reason for the Linux storefront on Steam is because Gabe absolutely HATED Windows Flat Design/8. And it seems that he realized that Valve was uncomfortably dependent on Microsoft, and that should Microsoft falter it would actually negatively affect Valve. Ever since Gabe has been pushing to make and then keep Steam OS-neutral. All three major PC OSes plus Playstation 3 if that's still a thing.

Assuming this is happening and that Valve is incorporating WINE or something like that, then my guess is that it's a reaction to Microsoft's announced subscription model. Oh, and the Windows10 spying that you can't turn off without third party utilities. Gabe used to work at Microsoft. He sold his Microsoft employee stock to fund Half Life. And now he looks and does not like what he sees at his former employer.

Which brings us back around to my point. If you want to stop ~80% of something,just add a little bit of friction. Inversely, if you want to increase something, decrease the friction. Right now I try to evangelize for Linux and all I get back is "muh Photoshop" even though a bunch of it seems to run in WINE. Or its "muh games" even though most of them run in WINE. And then it hits you, the problem is needing to configure WINE. WINE is the friction holding everything up. If you could just log into Steam and install Fortnite seamlessly, the Fortnite players that hate Microsoft would switch.

If Valve is really doing this it's the end of dual booting. Won't need to do it anymore. And when you can log into Steam in Fedora/Manjaro/Ubunut/Mint/Arch/Gentoo/etc and select Fortnite or Medal of Duty or whatever the hotness of the moment is or PHOTOSHOP without even knowing what WINE+DXVK is despite the fact that you're running it, well, then the stage is set. All we need at that point is Microsoft to continue to be Microsoft and we'll add to our user baser exponentially as they push people our way.

And then Valve can publish numbers of a growing Linux user base. And then we get more native ports. This will not happen overnight. Nothing ever does in FOSS. But it will happen.

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I just spent half an hour on this well crafted post and it was wiped out by my log in timing out. [shrugs]

Quoting: x_wingVulkan is not a SDK, is just a graphic API. Unfortunately, porting an application to another OS is not just about the graphic API.

It's not all the work, but AFAIK it's the lion's share of it. It has to be done from scratch. That's where Vulkan comes in and cannot be understated as being the key to the future.

Quoting: qptain Nemo[LONG QUOTE THAT"S COMPLETELY CORRECT

Everything Nemo said. /\this guy/\.

Quoting: Guest1) SOMEONE has to support every game that runs on Linux. Valve, or the game's dev, doesn't matter, but official support is a requirement of course. There should not be a "run in Wine" or anything like that, because all gamers should be treated equally on Steam, and Linux gamers shouldn't feel like they're lesser gamers in any way. It's either supported, or it's not.

2) Valve HAS to communicate this clearly to gamers, and the way of doing that right now is with the supported platform/OS icons. Valve should simply continue this and show a Linux/SteamOS icon when a game is supported on Linux, whether it runs through Wine or a Wine bottle or native it doesn't matter, it's the support that matters.

Dude, admire the zeal, but chill. Should all gamers be treated equally on Steam? Why? We're not equal. There's lots more of them. Lots and lots and lots more. There are more Apple users than Linux users, and Apple makes technology for people that can't figure out technology. Last count has us at .5%. Not five percentage points, or a whole percentage point, but half of a percentage point. Now the number of Linux users that dual boot to game on Windows is probably half to three quarters of us because WINE is a hassle. But that makes us still less than 5% of Steam. Probably less than 3%. The fact that Valve even has a Linux storefront makes no short-term sense from a corporate financial standpoint. It's clear evidence of favoritism towards us. Linux is on Steam because Gabe Newell HATED Windows 8, and realized that so did everybody else. So he decided to start planting seeds for the day when Microsoft finally went off the rails and started pushing it's userbase around so badly that they actually jumped ship. We're almost there.

WINE, DXVK, and Lutris are miracles and gifts from the gaming gods, but they are also a chore to configure, they often don't run right, and cause performance penalties. But here's the thing, DOOM(2016) and other Vulkan rendered games run great because WINE just sends the Vulkan function calls straight to the graphics drivers. Vulkan is the future of Linux gaming because it's the future of WINE gaming. And I think that someone at Valve had that thought, and that's possibly why we have DXVK and now possibly WINE integrated into Steam. Imagine it, playing a game in WINE+DXVK and all you did was type "sudo dnf install steam" into the command line. Imagine it being that seamless. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but also maybe that's the plan.

We've been trying this FOSS thing for twenty years. It feels like we're actually going backwards now. The SteamOS push by Valve actually got us a bunch of AAA ports that we never would have gotten otherwise. We don't even get all the indie sales, and it makes way more economic sense for them to provide native Linux installs. We're even losing Linux support for titles every now and again that had it, like we did with Banner Saga.

This is a way to get rid of dual booting so that we can get accurate counts of just how many Linux gamers there are. It's also the only way to get around the fact that 80% of the titles on Steam will never have a Linux port. Ever. As for new titles, I think that actually depends more on Sony right now than Valve. If the Playstation uses Vulkan, we win. The outcome is that binary. Once a game is done in Vulkan the graphics stuff does not have to be redone for another OS. It just plugs in. Vulkan was designed to do that. That means a lot of Windows titles will come from the Playstation to Windows running Vulkan, which will run as seamlessly in WINE as DOOM and Wolfenstein do. And that's the end of Microsoft, because as soon as we don't need DirectX we don't need Windows.

That means we're free.

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Quoting: Purple Library Guy

That said, people we are .5% of Steam. Forget GOG, Steam is the big dog, the one the industry looks at. At the moment it looks REALLY stupid for Valve to have sunk any money in Linux at all. We are not holding up our end of this computing revolution. AMD has put out their ray tracing demo in Vulkan a few months back, was that a mistake? Should they be basing it in DX12 like NVIDIA?

Probably not a mistake even if Linux didn't exist. Vulkan runs on Android and older Windows.
I'd certainly love to see Linux with a bigger share on Steam. Any ideas?

I meant a mistake for AMD to put resources into Vulkan instead of the sure thing of DX12.

Unfortunately all my ideas are all tied to Vulkan and it succeeding. Well, Vulkan and setting up primary school computer labs with Goodwill computers running Cinnamon and the standard host of stuff like GIMP, Libreoffice, Blender, etc. Wouldn't cost much to do at all, and kids would soak it up in nothing flat if made into a game. Don't even need teachers, just have them follow along to Youtube tutorials.

But no, as strange as it sounds, Microsoft rules the world because of Direct3D. That's the actual cornerstone of Redmond's empire. Everyone talks about PCs as though they were always Windows or Mac or linux, and back in the 80's that wasn't even close to being the case. We had Commodore, DOS, Apple and Mac, Tandy, etc. In the 90's Amiga failed and Solaris was never going to be a home computer OS, leaving M$ and Apple. Apple was floundering, but Microsoft was not unbeatable yet. That didn't happen until DirectX completely outclassed OpenGL and 3DFX went under taking Glide down with them. Linux gaming basically meant Tux Racer at this point in time.

Now everything is directX, including the current Xbox, and it forms a feedback loop. Even Playstation games are translated to DirectX for their PC ports(Final Fantasy Remasters for example). This means that console games have almost no chance of making it to Linux with very few exceptions because we don't and never will have DirectX. People aren't just trapped in Windows with their productivity software, they're trapped in their entertainment software which is what has actually driven PC development for all these years. You don't need a GPU to type. You need it to render games. You always hear someone mention Photoshop, but how many people do you know actually make their living with Photoshop? I don't know a single one, but I know a lot of people that want to play Fortnite who don't want to to have to deal with configuring WINE.

This means that Steam is actually Microsoft's greatest potential threat. Valve could kill Microsoft via attrition simply by demanding all new 3D games on Steam have a fully working Vulkan/Opengl rendering option in addition to DirectX. After throwing a giant hissy fit, the industry embrace of it would lead to it's general adoption for Playstation, Apple, Linux, and even Windows, while DirectX12 would be available on Windows and Xbox, and eventually only Microsoft games would use DirectX. From there it's just attrition as more and more people ditch Windows because they don't like being spied on, don't want to pay the Apple tax for hardware they can't upgrade, and instead realize that Mint Cinnamon is actually very a familiar feeling UI that plays the games. Productivity software would follow.

Looks like Valve is going a different way, though, and instead is embracing WINE. Well, it foregoes forcing any devs to shape up, but Valve seems interested in committing the resources to bringing the games to Linux one way or another. Gabe said that they believe the future is open source back when M$ gave us Windows Flat Design/8. Looks like Gabe meant it because over the years Valve has been positioning itself to be OS neutral. Focusing on WINE potentially gets Linux Fortnite AND Photoshop,all in the easy familiar point and click gui-land of Ubuntu.

So, yeah, we're going to have to thank Valve for that world domination thing down the road, because from where I'm standing they've done more than maybe any single dedicated FOSS company to making Linux a viable home computer consumer OS.

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