Quoting: Purple Library Guy

Quoting: tamodoloSome recent post said that Linux needs to be pre-installed more to hit mainstream. This is somewhat naive to say specialy if you think Linux have high quality distributions for desktop use today. Unfortunately the desktop is almost dead. The new generation don't use computers but cellphone instead of it.

The rumours of the desktop's death are a great exaggeration. What happened is that people with no real use for a desktop gradually stopped having one, using a phone instead. But it turns out there are quite a lot of people who do have a real use for a desktop because there are a ton of things you can't do well on a phone, and they still get them, whatever generation they belong to. So we're not looking at a continuous trend towards zero, we're looking at a change in the niche size from near ubiquitous down to just quite common.

Quoting: NociferThe desktop is dead for consumers.

Not even that. Plenty of consumers have things they want to do that either require or at least are much better with a desktop. People who like to mess around with photos or video. My ten year old granddaughter has her own youtube channel. People who have any one of a hundred hobbies--my dad does genealogy stuff, some people translate manga and have to clear out the speech bubbles and stick new English words in them. (Looks up at the name of this website) Gamers--how many people are on Steam again? People who write . . . original fiction, fanfics, editing Wikipedia, whatever. People who maintain the website for their church, or do the finances for the tiny charity they help out. Masses and masses of perfectly ordinary consumers have stuff they want to do which requires more than the web and apps on a tiny screen without a real keyboard.

Well, yeah, I kind of said the exact same thing with the rest of my comment. To be frank though, I don't consider these as examples of consumer use, but examples of "business/student/workstation/etc" use. "Consumer use" is just that, consuming stuff created by others, be it watching videos on YouTube, or reading manga on MangaDex, or reading stuff on Wikipedia, or reading the finance chart for your local charity's expenses, or listening to music. These use cases can be perfectly covered by a consumer device such as a smartphone.

But as soon as you try to do anything else other than consume, i.e. as soon as you start creating videos for YouTube, or scanlating manga on MangaDex, or editing stuff on Wikipedia, or typing out the finance chart for your local charity, or making music, or all the other examples you mentioned and a thousand more like them; then at that point you've transitioned from a consumer of content to a producer of content, and hence a consumer device is no longer enough - you need a desktop, aka a "workstation". And that's where Linux shines, and also where Windows enjoys its biggest market share.

So I stand by my statement: the desktop is dead for consumers, exactly because as you said "people with no real use for a desktop gradually stopped having one, using a phone instead". But for people doing more than consuming, and that's the vast majority of people over the age of ~15 or so (at least in the "first world"), the desktop is still the go-to solution. And that's why I think Linux should absolutely not copy the Mac and smartphone mentality regarding backwards compatibility, because that mentality is consumer mentality, and the desktop is not meant for consumers anymore.

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Quoting: tamodoloUnfortunately the desktop is almost dead. The new generation don't use computers but cellphone instead of it.

The desktop is dead for consumers. For everybody else, i.e. for the people that need to use a computer for business/student/workstation/etc purposes, the desktop is actually very, very far from dead. And let's not forget that even the so-called "consumers" are usually only consumers for only some of their computing activity, not all of it. E.g. in my case I may be a consumer using a smartphone for my social needs, or for reading books, or for watching stuff on YouTube, but most of my day is spent on a normal PC.

Quoting: elmapulmany test drive the pirated version to know if its worth purchasing.

"Standard disclaimer to avoid being branded a pirate" detected :P

Quoting: KohlyKohlWindows keeps everything and Mac OS moves on all quickly from legacy code and Linux is somewhere in between. In my experience, I think that Mac OS does this the right way.

I respectfully disagree. The Mac philosophy is good for Macs and smartphones, i.e. for consumer devices. Linux is better than that, and it should strive to replace Windows on the workstation, since that's where the desktop is still thriving, and for that you need backwards compatibility. That's the reason Windows is still so prevalent after all (besides momentum). That, and gaming (the other major use case for the modern desktop), but Valve are already taking care of that one for us.

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I bear many grudges against GOG but I still buy my games mostly from them whenever I can, because a) I still have the hope that they will pull their heads out of their a$$es and start behaving like a proper anti-DRM store should, i.e. support Linux as the anti-DRM OS of choice (before Proton it was understandable as they were a small store without the money and leverage that Valve had available in order to promote Linux as a first-class citizen; after Proton they have NO freaking excuse) and also be as friendly and accommodating to the developers (patches etc) as they can possibly be, b) it's in my best interests to actually own my games instead of renting them from Valve, no matter how moronic GOG/CDPR's management has been, and c) I'm comfortable enough with Linux and Wine to be able to play GOG games with everything that modern Wine/Proton has to offer.

I only buy from Steam those few games that aren't DRM-free but that are so good that I'm dying to play them (or support them) while they're still fresh out of the oven; stuff like the two Nier games, Dark Souls, the remake of Resident Evil 2, etc. I seriously respect Valve for the effort they've been putting into Linux these past few years, and I'd love to support them more, but I honestly can't come to terms with the modern DRM model. I guess it's a good thing they're so big a company that they won't actually miss my money.

Re: the OP's question, I don't think the Steam Deck's sales numbers (judging by the pre-orders) will prove relevant enough - what's a few more thousands, even tens of thousands, compared to ~27 millions? But as far as Linux usage is concerned, then provided the Steam Deck is as good as it sounds I believe we'll easily reach 2%.

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Quoting: Guestto Capcom this isn't GNU/Linux, this is something closer to Just Another Console(tm).

And that's more than fine for the time being. Every journey begins with a first step, does it not? At this point all we really want and all we can really ask for is that games can run in an easy and competitive (performance-wise) manner on Linux, so that PC users aren't forced to use Windows if they want to also play games; and the Steam Deck's success will facilitate that. If and when this success becomes a reality, then we can start asking for more.

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Quoting: Glog78

Quoting: Nocifer

Quoting: Glog78So KDE Discover now prevents you to deinstall kde plasma but you can go on and deinstall xfce or gnome which might used on a second user of this pc ? (Linus usecase ->) He doesn't liked dolphin as far as i got it and used another filemanager which can be in this scenario still be deinstalled ...

Ah yes, that's another point I read and wanted to reply to but then forgot, so I'll reply to this instead: IMHO it makes absolute sense for a GUI tool that is part of a GUI family of packages and is not meant to work on its own to actually prevent you from uninstalling said GUI family of packages, including itself.

If you really want to uninstall your DE (or other GUI-related stuff like Xorg) you should be doing so via CLI, i.e. a tool/environment independent of your DE, in the same way that e.g. reformatting your root should be done via a second system independent of your root device.

Regarding Gnome or XFCE, they're just non-essential packages from the point of view of an active KDE environment.

While i understand the arguments i still want to ask a question here too:

kdiscovery considers kate to be an essential part for editing text
gnome software center considers gedit to be an essential part for editing text
..... (you see a pattern here)

Now the question ->
What is the essential part of editing on the distribution for the package manager ?

I think the answer is simple in this case: text editors should never be considered as essential and thus should be removable at whim via any kind of package manager, be it GUI or CLI. In general, the only packages that should be protected against easy/accidental removal are those which if missing would render a system unusable and/or unbootable.

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Quoting: Glog78So KDE Discover now prevents you to deinstall kde plasma but you can go on and deinstall xfce or gnome which might used on a second user of this pc ? (Linus usecase ->) He doesn't liked dolphin as far as i got it and used another filemanager which can be in this scenario still be deinstalled ...

Ah yes, that's another point I read and wanted to reply to but then forgot, so I'll reply to this instead: IMHO it makes absolute sense for a GUI tool that is part of a GUI family of packages and is not meant to work on its own to actually prevent you from uninstalling said GUI family of packages, including itself.

If you really want to uninstall your DE (or other GUI-related stuff like Xorg) you should be doing so via CLI, i.e. a tool/environment independent of your DE, in the same way that e.g. reformatting your root should be done via a second system independent of your root device.

Regarding Gnome or XFCE, they're just non-essential packages from the point of view of an active KDE environment.

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Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: NociferDon't know if it was intentional or not, but this tidbit here kind of blatantly equates "Linus Sebastian" to "idiot", heh :P

Eh it's a standard saying, does not mean the person is an idiot at all https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/idiot-proof [External Link]

I know it's a standard saying and that it's not meant to be insulting, but the analogy between "Linus-Sebastian-proof" and "idiot-proof" still stands, both in your and Nate's quote. Not that I'm judging the choice of words, mind you :)

Quoting: fabertawePacman doesn't prevent you forcibly doing this. I sometimes remove a package that is a dependent/dependency of something else, then do my tinkering and install it again. Of course if I were to forget (hasn't happened yet!) to reinstall said package then that would be my fault and I'd rightly call myself an idiot :grin: But I should have that choice.

Quoting: mr-victoryOn Arch in file /etc/pacman.conf
[options]
...
HoldPkg = pacman glibc
...

Thanks; I know Arch doesn't and likely won't ever try to hold a user's hands, but I was asking rhetorically about Linux as an OS in general. What we're discussing here is so far only limited to a Debian-derived distro + KDE combination, but since this is a (mostly welcome) change that could very well propagate and end up affecting more distros and package managers, I'd love it if it could be made at once user-friendly but also configurable and/or toggleable for the sake of the more advanced users out there.

Quoting: AussieEevee

Quoting: NociferDon't know if it was intentional or not, but this tidbit here kind of blatantly equates "Linus Sebastian" to "idiot", heh :P

To be entirely fair, Linus does have a habit of breaking... I mean, dropping... things.

Well, dropping things makes for more views, amirite? It's the hard life of a professional "influencer" :)

Quoting: BeamboomThose who just want a consumer box to do their gaming on - why on earth should they install Linux to begin with?

For the same reasons they use Windows maybe, but without the added hurdles of e.g. license costs and telemetry spying? Not all consumers (i.e. non-techheads) are gamer drones who can satisfy their computing needs with consoles (or tablets, or smartphones, or other such appliances). So for these consumers there should exist a solution besides Microsoft's and Apple's closed source, spying, bloated and insecure crap; there should be an OS that allows them to use a PC in a manner as advanced or as noobish as they desire. And that's what Linux is (trying to be) all about.

Quoting: 14Linus mentioned some gamer-oriented distros that they found but decided against those on purpose so that they could act like a regular Joe searching the 'net and trying out a popular one. So, he purposefully decided against the distro he probably should have tried out.

As per your quote (I wouldn't know myself because I don't watch Linus's streams) he did the exact opposite: he tried to act as an average Joe and install whatever a Google search for "Linux" would get him to install, instead of purposefully downloading and installing a virtually unknown (currently; because it's newer) "gamer" distro which the average Joe out there would never find and install on their own. That's exactly what I'd do myself if I were in his place (streaming tech videos for average Joes).

Quoting: BeamboomThose who just want a consumer box to do their gaming on - why on earth should they install Linux to begin with?

For the same reasons they use Windows maybe, but without the added hurdles of e.g. license costs and telemetry spying? Not all consumers (i.e. non-techheads) are gamer drones who can satisfy their computing needs with consoles (or tablets, or smartphones, or other such appliances). So for these consumers there should exist a solution besides Microsoft's and Apple's closed source, spying, bloated and insecure crap; there should be an OS that allows them to use a PC in a manner as advanced or as noobish as they desire. And that's what Linux is (trying to be) all about.

Quoting: Purple Library GuyIf you intentionally want to delete something, wouldn't you normally do it by, I dunno, using a "delete something" command of some sort, not by trying to trigger the deletion by installing a package? As far as I know, nobody's done anything to the stuff you do when you're trying to delete things.

No, there is no actual difference between explicitly trying to remove a (critical) package, and a misconfigured package inadvertently launching the same process for removing a (critical) package. It's the same "piece of code" as far as apt is concerned, it's just that you've arrived there by following two different paths. So whatever alterations are made to the destination will affect both paths.

Quoting: Purple Library Guywhich would mean those approved-of people would be in a position to know they needed to add "--let-it-hose-my-system"

At least in my case no, I wasn't aware, hence the *hint*/*wink* part of my previous comment. As long as this override switch does exist, then it's pretty much my ideal situation as far as functionality is concerned (i.e. it's a much better solution than having the user type out that cheesy phrase).

Quoting: Purple Library GuyI know that because I read about Linux, not because I use Linux. As a Linux user, I have no awareness of that. I have an applet for sound stuff on my taskbar; if it isn't in the setting when I right click that applet, I don't know about it. So no, that fact isn't relevant at all.

That's an example of great UX, and it's what I'd love Linux to become in its entirety: an OS that behind the scenes allows you full choice in how to configure your system and what components to install or leave out if you so desire, but that on the surface it handles those things for you and it Just Works™ so that even my grandmother can use it.

As an analogy for anyone who may have watched the WALL-E film, I've always dreamed for Linux to become a beautiful, polished, Mac-like EVE with a simple and intuitive interface and two (figuratively speaking) buttons: one large one in the front for "power on and let us handle everything for you, enjoy your stay dear user" and one small one in the back for "open hatch and enter WALL-E mode".

Quoting: gradyvuckovicThese are exactly the kinds of positive UX changes we need more of in the world of Linux and which I am glad to see the Linus Linux Challenge has resulted in.

As a rule, any time a user asks a piece of software to do anything, whether it be simply starting or closing the application, or asking it to perform any kind of task, there should be clear communication of the outcome.

For example, an action that refreshes a view in a user interface:
- If the action was successful (refreshing a view), hint at that visually by flashing the display area.
- If the action was unsuccessful, present a message box with a description of exactly what went wrong.
- If the action takes longer than 400ms [External Link], present a loading indicator on the view.

The number one thing that causes UX problems, is 'lack of communication'. If you don't know what's happening, or what went wrong, trying to fix the problem is that much harder.

A simple thing like an error message saying "Error: This action cannot be completed as it would remove the following software which is critical to the system's operation:", does not take that much effort for a developer to implement, but makes a massive positive difference for users.

New users aren't 'idiots' (necessarily, I mean in some cases..), they are just new. It's not their fault if they are left confused because the software didn't fully explain itself.

This should be a minimum UX standard that should be implemented across all DEs for all 'failable' actions.

Kudos to the distros for taking onboard the feedback of the Linux Challenge and making great changes as a result. Hopefully we see more of this.

Just a lucky guess here, but you sound like a web designer or at least an experienced UX guy. Kudos to you, we desperately need more UX guys in the open source part of the world.

Quoting: elmapulpeople shouldnt be forced to chose between all the benefits of linux or having to deal with something like windows.

Exactly this! As the Linux community we should be striving for the best of both (or three if we include the Macs, as we should) worlds.

Quoting: SamsaiWhat even is the use-case for a package manager to totally uninstall essential packages upon install of an unrelated package? I can get behind being able to tell the package manager to uninstall essential packages when told to do so explicitly, but installing regular application software should never make massive alterations to the foundational parts of my system to begin with.

Well, this change is actually all about completely preventing the package manager from uninstalling essential packages when told to do so, either explicitly or implicitly. What produced the error Linus faced was trying to install a misconfigured package combined with his/the system's failure to first update the package listings before he tried to install it; it's just that this misconfigured package ended up firing apt's "remove essential package" routine and from thereon there was nothing to prevent apt from doing exactly as ordered, beyond that one silly "fail-safe" (which shouldn't ever have been implemented in the first place).

PS - Damn, reading a thread with so many comments and wanting to reply to so many of them is really a b*tch to manage without ending up with a small essay instead of a comment... Sorry about the real estate abuse.

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Graham's comment underneath "Hopefully this is Linus-Sebastian-proof", heh. I hope many more application developers are looking at the way Discover and APT are evolving to ensure things are a bit more idiot-proof.

Don't know if it was intentional or not, but this tidbit here kind of blatantly equates "Linus Sebastian" to "idiot", heh :P

On topic, I think it's a good thing that Linux is slowly evolving to become a bit more suitable for the wider (read: technologically illiterate) masses of users out there; that's one of the major things it still needs to tackle as far as mainstream adoption is concerned. But I do have one question: what if I intentionally do want to remove a "system critical" package like Xorg or my DE - how do I do it if package managers, both GUI and CLI, prevent me from doing so? Is there (and if there isn't, could we pretty please have one, *hint* *hint* *wink* *wink*) a toggle somewhere that can be used to disable these fail-safes? I'm personally all for user-friendliness, but only as long as it isn't taken to the extreme of actually becoming an obstacle to a more tech-headed user's workflow.

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Quoting: Beamboom

Quoting: slaapliedje

Quoting: Liam DaweIt's actually more popular than Firefox overall, going by multiple stats websites.

Sure, since MS has all but crammed it down the throats of it's users. With literal ads sprinkled into Windows to use it instead of whatever else you're using.

I've not been on Windows for decades now, but I have a friend who got a new PC just last week with latest Windows version on. He's not too computer literate (to put it mildly) but had a go at installing the apps he was used to use from before.
He called me the other day to tell me that he was warned against installing Firefox on his computer and felt he had to ask me if he could or should still install it.

Let me say that again. He were fucking warned, by an app installed with the operating system (Edge, I presume - I don't know) to NOT install Firefox. I haven't seen the message, but the way he perceived the warning was that Firefox was an unsafe browser to use.

My jaw dropped. The nerve of that company... The nerve!

As much as I hate the practice, your friend was probably only warned to not install an "unknown app" downloaded from the internet, which is a standard protection scheme on Windows. Warning him out and out about a competing product like Firefox is so illegal that in fact MS have already been legally condemned for this exact practice a few years back and forced via a Windows Update patch to offer their users the explicit choice to install third-party browsers.

That said, the incident is still very concerning (no less because this warning system very often ends up serving as a blatant if underhanded way to monopolize the market in MS's favor, and though the legislators know about it they choose to ignore it as long as it doesn't explicitly break the law) and it goes to show that we're in deep trouble as far as the browser wars are concerned. Just the other day I happened to check the browser market shares for the first time in years, and I was shocked to see that Firefox is down to ~3,5% on the desktop. Not 15%, not 10%, three and an effing half. Yup, we're in very deep sh-- trouble.

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Quoting: GuestSo, this is essentially a Proton whitelist 2.0. The one that Valve have abandoned after a couple of Proton releases.

Yeah, sounds very convincing :grin: I would expect that thousands of games will stay with "Unknown" status forever. Maybe Valve will check the compat once in a while for the "hype game of the month" like Doom Eternal or Cyberpunk 2077.

You mean, they abandoned publicly. Do you really think Valve has disclosed everything they've been doing behind the scenes during these past couple of years? Of course not. As soon as Proton turned from a mere compatibility tool into a full-blown product which will probably shape the business paradigm of Valve for years to come, any progress has obviously been carefully curated because it's now a trade secret that needs to be kept away from the competition's eyes, at least until it's ready to be properly revealed/launched. That's also why SteamOS 3.0 is also not being publicly developed, even though it's an open source Arch-derived distro.

Same with this curation list; I seriously doubt it's an initiative that will be launching only just now, after this public announcement - I fully expect them to have been at it for at least a few months already, and to be almost at the end of the process. A corporation worth their salt do not announce a new product unless they can be certain that it's capable to do what it will be advertised to do, especially a corp like Valve who have learned this lesson firsthand with the Steam Machines.

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