Quoting: F.UltraThis whole fiasco is a fiasco of the Linux fanbase, nothing more.

As I said in a previous comment, I think an acceptable resolution (i.e. delay) has been reached, but the matter was not initially well-handled by Ubuntu devs.

Quoting: F.UltraClose to two years ago they announced that they planned to drop 32-bit (IA-32) support and since no one back then voiced any concern they moved forward to the decision they now made for 19.10.

A couple of times during that email chain, it was indicated that the current discussion was only about discontinuing the 32-bit installation images, and that ceasing updates of 32-bit package builds altogether would take place in a separate discussion. The question about what exactly was being discussed was brought up several times, and some people were obviously unclear about it. Some people also voiced concern.

E.g.
1) ["On the #ubuntu-release IRC channel, it became clear that the purpose of this thread was not entirely clear, so we need to clarify specifically:

Are we discussing dropping support for i386 *installation images*, or are we talking about dropping i386 altogether, including in the repositories in general?

...killing i386 support globally could introduce issues, including but not limited to certain upstream softwares having to go away entirely, due to the interdependency or issues with how certain apps work (read; Wine, 32-bit support, 64-bit support being flaky, and Windows apps being general pains in that they work on 32bit but not always on 64-bit).

So with the scope of this email chain, I would like to request a clarification before we go forward much more with this email chain: Are we discussing dropping 32-bit for *installer images* this cycle, or are we talking about the complete global death of i386 as a supported architecture?"](https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-May/040315.html)

Reply:
"Let's make it simple and reserve this thread for discussion about dropping 32-bit installer images now.

Someone else is welcome to start a separate thread to discuss the more controversial and complex topic of dropping i386 completely." [External Link]

2) "I've been following this thread for a while, and have some questions. Are we talking about dropping Ubuntu x86 images or i386 packages from the repo? If the former, I don't see an issue here, as the subs (Lubuntu, core, etc) can still build release images. But if Ubuntu is dropping i386 packages, that brings up a huge issue with software compatibility, at a very bad time (at least for me and the projects I support)." [External Link]

Reply:
"I was hoping that the question about 32-bit packages would be split off into a separate thread." [External Link]

Quoting: F.Ultra...they announced yet again that it would be done. Then they again waited for comments which this time came in droves and after that they changed their mind.

This is how things are done and decided in the real world all the time, the only difference now is that the immature Linux fanbase for some reason decided to run around in circles screaming that the world was ending.

The problem was this announcement wasn't presented as the start of a discussion, it was presented as a matter of fact.

"The Ubuntu engineering team has reviewed the facts before us and concluded that we should not continue to carry i386 forward as an architecture. Consequently, i386 will not be included as an architecture for the 19.10 release, and we will shortly begin the process of disabling it for the eoan series across Ubuntu infrastructure." [External Link]

That there was mostly consensus among stakeholders was supposition on the part of Ubuntu devs. Hence why Ubuntu's new statement says "we felt we had sufficient consensus" [External Link], which people in an echo chamber often do feel.

Another example of the disconnect is the Q&A [External Link] they released.

Q. Doesn’t Steam use 32 bit libraries? How can I play my games?

Steam itself bundles a runtime containing necessary 32-bit libraries required to run the Steam client. In addition each game installed via Steam may ship 32-bit libraries they require.

Pierre-Loup A. Griffais:
"Steam and thousands of its games rely on a 32-bit glibc from the host system, as well as OpenGL and Vulkan userland graphics driver libraries for Mesa and the NVIDIA driver. Steam as it currently exists will be broken on 19.10..." [External Link]

Q. How can I run 32-bit Windows applications if 32-bit WINE isn’t available in the archive?

Try 64-bit WINE first. Many applications will “just work”. If not use similar strategies as for 32 bit games. That is use an 18.04 LTS based Virtual Machine or LXD container that has full access to multiarch 32-bit WINE and related libraries.

Rosanne DiMesio:
"And when they're handing out advice like 'Try 64-bit WINE first. Many applications will “just work”,' I'd say the people making this decision seem to know less about Wine than a typical Ubuntu user." [External Link]

"Unfortunately, based on what the Ubuntu article says, I don't have any confidence that they even understand what Wine needs, let alone plan to provide it." [External Link]

Andrew Eikum:
"Yes, I agree. From the FAQ it doesn't seem like they understand Wine's needs." [External Link]

Jens Reyer:
"Wine heavily relies on i386. Not only for legacy 32-bit software, but also 'almost all' 64-bit software uses a 32-bit installer. 'It’s practically impossible to implement 32-bit on top of 64-bit', so that you wouldn’t need i386 at all.. So although Wine will still be available in the Ubuntu archive on amd64, it’ll be basically useless.

To support current features in new Wine releases you need recent versions of a few libraries (e.g. faudio, vulkan-loader and vkd3d, and those require other recent stuff like sdl2, …). If you use our Debian packages also current versions of unicode-data and khronos-api. 18.04 is already too old to fully support current Wine with (all) current features. So the solutions proposed . . . like containers and snaps based on 18.04 will not fully work. I’m not sure how well Wine (which uses the same libraries from amd64 AND i386) would work with a static /lib/i386-linux-gnu." [External Link]

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I think this is an acceptable outcome. I don't think it was entirely clear to various participants that what was being discussed in May 2018 was freezing 32-bit builds of libraries instead of merely ceasing 32-bit installation images.[1][2] Nor does the decision appear to have been well-communicated to at least some stakeholders prior to the announcement.[3][4][5][6] Now those stakeholders who will be affected have more time to plan, whether that's reaching a technical solution or pointing their users towards other distributions. As for Ubuntu users, nothing appears to have changed except the time frame. Whether Steam on Ubuntu was officially supported or not, it was still going to be usable on 19.10 and beyond by some means (such as container).

[1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-May/040316.html [External Link]
[2] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-May/040331.html [External Link]
[3] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2019-June/040743.html [External Link]
[4] https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147898.html [External Link]
[5] https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147905.html [External Link]
[6] https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/c24gpk/i386_architecture_will_be_dropped_starting_with/eri4vy2/ [External Link]

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Quoting: chancho_zombieps: or maybe this is intentional? and they are trying to push flatpak/snap ?

This crossed my mind as well, although I'm not sure if there has been any investment in creating a Steam snap [External Link] beyond the work Ikey did before he left Solus. I wouldn't be surprised if a Steam snap is introduced in time for 19.10 (because I think they would prefer to avoid recommending Flatpak to their users if possible), and certainly I expect there to be a Steam snap by 20.04. I could be wrong, but I don't think most Ubuntu Steam users would go for setting up "Running Steam in a LXD system container [External Link]".

It's not that I think they decided to stop updating 32-bit builds of libraries with the intent to promote snaps, just that it could be an added bonus.

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Quoting: Redface

Quoting: GuestThey DID talk about it before and my wild guess is at least Valve took notice of it. Hence their quick declaration afterwards with no much visible bargaining.

Possible Valve was aware and could not change their mind. There is this mailing list post from a year ago that outline this plan, someone on reddit just mentioned it: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-May/040348.html?_ga=2.61098156.1624633425.1561246225-23245439.1561246225 [External Link]

This should have been made a lot more public, it reminds me of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy where the announcement of the plan to bulldozer the main characters house was buried in the cellar of the townhall. He could just have objected to it in time.

That's the same (short) email chain discussion where this was said:
quote=[https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-May/040316.htm [External Link]l]> So with the scope of this email chain, I would like to request a clarification before we go forward much
> more with this email chain: Are we discussing dropping 32-bit for *installer images* this cycle, or are we
> talking about the complete global death of i386 as a supported architecture?

Let's make it simple and reserve this thread for discussion about dropping 32-bit installer images now.

Someone else is welcome to start a separate thread to discuss the more controversial and complex topic of dropping i386 completely.

And maybe dropping armhf completely should be a third thread since that hopefully will be easier than i386.[/quote]And this:
quote=[https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-May/040331.html [External Link]]
> I've been following this thread for a while, and have some questions. Are we talking about dropping
> Ubuntu x86 images or i386 packages from the repo? If the former, I don't see an issue here, as the
> subs (Lubuntu, core, etc) can still build release images.

The primary Ubuntu flavor already stopped creating 32-bit ISOs before 18.04 LTS. At a minimum, I think this discussion is about whether *any* official Ubuntu flavor should offer official 32-bit ISOs starting now with 18.10.

I believe one proposal is to go a step further and block users from using the normal upgrade tools to upgrade 32-bit installs past 18.04 LTS. The error should explain the situation. This is a bit annoying because we don't support cross-grading from 32-bit to 64-bit.

I was hoping that the question about 32-bit packages would be split off into a separate thread.[/quote]Not exactly conclusive with regard to where things are now.

I've seen more lengthy discussion written on a toilet stall than what occurred on the ubuntu-devel mailing list. /hyperbole

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Quoting: Redface

Quoting: MohandevirShouldn't Canonical began to discuss this decision with the parties involved before announcing anything officially?

It's getting uglier by the hour and Canonical are looking like Cowboys in the process.

Bad project managment.

Are you sure this is not what they intended by that? They announced in the beginning of 2018 that they would finally decide mid 2019 whether to continue with the 32bit distribution or not. But apparently no one, at least not me and most other people I read posts from though it would involve dropping 32 bit libraries for 64bit systems.

Poor communication definitely. But now there are discussions about going forward.

Conducting discussions this way is kind of like how in May 2000 Rudy Giuliani announced he was separating from his second wife during a press conference without first having told his second wife about it. Sure, it gets the job done. I'm sure he and his second wife had a lot to talk about after that press conference, although probably not as productively as other means would have yielded.

I can also cut off my arm to get rid of a hangnail.

Quoting: https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147905.htmlI talked to one of the Ubuntu guys about their i386 plans 3 years ago, they only planned to drop the i386 installer, but not the whole suite. I'm also flabbergasted by yesterday's announcement.

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...that's not how it was originally explained

To my eye, it doesn't read too terribly different than the last paragraph of the original announcement, perhaps a little bit clearer. But if the original announcement didn't suffice for Wine and Steam developers, I'm not sure why the restatement would.

Original announcement:
"...we will not provide 32-bit builds of new upstream versions of libraries..."

Restatement:
"What we are dropping is updates to the i386 libraries, which will be frozen at the 18.04 LTS versions"

Original announcement:
"there are a number of ways that 32-bit applications can continue to be made available to users of later Ubuntu releases, as detailed in [4]. We will be working to polish the 32-bit support story over the course of the 19.10 development cycle."

[4] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2018-May/040348.html [External Link]

Restatement:
"...there is every intention to ensure that there is a clear story for how i386 applications (including games) can be run on versions of Ubuntu later than 19.10."

---

It's not clear that anything has really changed, other than some wording.

For example, this doesn't really address:

Quoting: https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147881.html"Reading more carefully: their suggestion is to use a containerized 18.04 environment (snaps) to run Wine on a 19.10 system. This would use the 18.04 packages. But since there's no expectation of long term support for the environment containing 32-bit packages, I can't see any point in putting much effort into this temporary solution.

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Quoting: EikeI had the impression that the x86 libs must match the amd64 ones, so freezing the former would freeze the later - and thus your graphics driver. But I'm not sure either.

https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147869.html [External Link]
"The suggestion from Ubuntu is to use the 32 bit libraries from 18.04, which will be supported until 2023. It's theoretically possible for me to build the 32 bit side on the OBS using the libraries from 18.04, but that would lead to a mismatch in library versions the 32 and 64 bit sides were built against. Apt requires the i386 and amd64 versions of packages match or it will refuse to install them, so unless that changes, users of 19.10 and up will be unable to install the 32 bit libraries they need to run Wine, unless they downgrade a significant part of their system to the 18.04 versions."

https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147881.html [External Link]
"Reading more carefully: their suggestion is to use a containerized 18.04 environment (snaps) to run Wine on a 19.10 system. This would use the 18.04 packages. But since there's no expectation of long term support for the environment containing 32-bit packages, I can't see any point in putting much effort into this temporary solution.

Nor do I see much point in packaging a 64-bit-only Wine on our end. It's such a niche case for 64-bit-only Wine to be useful at all. If those few people for whom it's useful need the latest development version, they can build it themselves."

https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147882.html [External Link]
"As I understand it, it would still be possible to run 32-bit executables on the Ubuntu 19.10 kernel, but we'd have to build and ship all our dependencies ourselves. I don't think we want to go there just yet."

https://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2019-June/147985.html [External Link]
"I can't use PPAs to satisfy build dependencies on the OBS. Packages have to either be in the Ubuntu standard, update, or universe repositories, or on the OBS itself. The latter is what we're doing for FAudio. That works fine, other than the whining from Ubuntu users about the tremendous difficulty of copying and pasting the command to add another repository. So if Ubuntu users do decide to go the PPA route, they should also plan on building their own Wine packages."

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Steve Langasek has responded on the Ubuntu Community Hub.
quote=[vorlon [External Link]]I’m sorry that we’ve given anyone the impression that we are “dropping support for i386 applications”. That’s simply not the case. What we are dropping is updates to the i386 libraries, which will be frozen at the 18.04 LTS versions. But there is every intention to ensure that there is a clear story for how i386 applications (including games) can be run on versions of Ubuntu later than 19.10.[/quote]It's basically a restatement of the last paragraph of the announcement [External Link]. At the very least, I wish they would steer away from language like "support story" and "evolution of" (as used in the announcement); it reeks of marketing.

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Quoting: Arten

Quoting: mphuZOK. Let's see if Valve will be consistent in their decision:
https://appletoolbox.com/2019/06/macos-catalina-and-your-32-bit-apps [External Link]


MacOS as different case. When Apple remove 32bit support, there is no other way. You want play Duke Nuke 3d? Valve on Mac can say "It Apple thing. We have hands cuffed. But you can be blamed, you know, Apple do this regularly, remember PowerPC and you chosed MacOS" but in Ubuntu case, Valve recomended distro and now what? I like to play old game sometimes. Yes they can build Steam client for 64bit. Now i think valve start distribute 64bit steam, and change officialy suported distro to another. For wine, i don't know what they do. CodeWeavers need their solution support 32 bit windows app, because without that they are done. "Your acounting windows software is 32bit? And you use ubuntu? Great, that we cant do... can you pls pay for nothink?"

I heard from an anonymous source on the Internet that Valve plans to pivot away from macOS to one of the many other interchangeable Darwin distributions which will be maintaining 32-bit support. Valve may be developing, or have already developed, its own Darwin distribution.

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Quoting: garpuIs Steam officially supporting Debian, as well, or are they only the LTS version of Ubuntu?

I didn't see a response to your question, although I may have missed it. According to some outdated documentation, "Currently, Steam for Linux is only supported on the most recent version of Ubuntu LTS with the Unity, Gnome, or KDE desktops. [External Link]" Clearly the Steam client on SteamOS is also supported, but as far as I am aware, official support isn't currently extended to Steam client use on Debian itself, despite SteamOS being a Debian derivative. Steam's own Hardware & Software Survey [External Link] shows that people use the client on unsupported distros, and several other unsupported distros in part constitute the "Linux 64 bit" and "Other" listings for Linux version.

Despite the Steam client not being supported beyond SteamOS and Ubuntu LTS, you can find games on the Steam store that mention other distros in their system requirements (e.g. Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition [External Link] lists "Ubuntu 12.04 or later, Fedora 21, Debian 8"; Skullgirls [External Link] lists "Ubuntu 15.04 / Fedora 22 / SteamOS"; etc).

The store categorizes the platform as "SteamOS + Linux", but in terms of official support, I believe that phrasing is intended to mean 'SteamOS + Ubuntu LTS', not 'SteamOS + all Ubuntu releases including interim releases' or 'SteamOS + any other Linux distribution in existence'. I would not be surprised if Linux users not using SteamOS or Ubuntu LTS are subject to the potential caveat that Steam Support [External Link] can refuse help requests if they so choose.

---

I have yet to hear GOG Sp. z o.o.'s reaction to the news [External Link] (somehow I picture this [External Link] as their reaction, but I expect they will address it as best they can); I'm interested if GOG is taking a wait-and-see approach or has a more proactive response, and if this might further dampen their Linux endeavors. GOG currently only officially supports Ubuntu and Ubuntu derivatives.

quote=[GOG.com [External Link]]Which Linux distributions do you support?
We test and support our games on Ubuntu 16.04 LTS and Ubuntu 18.04 LTS. Our support also extends to any future non-LTS releases of Ubuntu that has not reached it end of life yet, official Ubuntu flavors (like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc.), and derivatives (e.g. Linux Mint, elementaryOS etc.).

As long as your operating system is part of the Ubuntu family, you have nothing to worry about. Naturally, our technical support and refund policy apply to all these versions, as long as you meet the minimal requirements for the game you bought.

Are you planning to add official support for more Linux distributions?
There are no plans to officially support other Linux distributions at this time, sorry.[/quote]

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