In May it will be five years since the Carmageddon: Reincarnation Kickstarter. Linux support was a stretch goal they reached and we still have nothing to show for it.
Stainless Games Ltd are one of the major developers who made me lose faith in, not only crowdfunding but, generally trusting developers on what they say at all.
Nearly five years ago on May 24 2012, the developers promised Linux support for Carmageddon: Reincarnation if they stretched their Kickstarter funding out of ordinary people like you and me from $400,000 to $600,000!
That may seem like a lot, but $200,000 extra to produce a Linux and Mac version is...yeah insanity. Even with those extra funds, it has nearly been five years and all we’ve had is either silence or idiotic remarks from one of their team on Twitter (who I had to block).
The last we heard from that particular person is noted here in an article from February 2016 where we were supposed to get “a very clear statement on that in the near future”. Yeah, that happened — not.
The problem here, for me, is that they later did a revamp of the title called Carmageddon: Max Damage. This was to fix some problems, boost sales again and port it to consoles.
Carmageddon: Max Damage also never made it to Linux.
Fun fact, they actually released a trailer where they just run over a ton of penguins, make from that what you will:
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And now, they have announced that they are doing yet another Carmageddon title.
So, I contacted them via email and Twitter and guess what — no response.
Some developers are great, other developers like Stainless Games Ltd don’t deserve a penny from you. Sadly, this is a common case with crowdfunding and Linux and there are plenty of other examples. I actually keep a Wiki Page for this very purpose.
It's sad, very sad. I didn't realize it had been so long until their Twitter post about a new game. I looked it up and was really quite shocked.
Companies like this taint the waters for other more legitimate developers. This causes a knock-on effect for others, as I know plenty of Linux gamers who have been burnt by not only this Kickstarter, but others too. I myself got burnt and stopped funding anything on Kickstarter for about two years due to situations like this. Article taken from GamingOnLinux.com.
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This is why, when I consider pledging for a Kickstarter, I have to remind myself: The moment money changes hands and the receipient is under no contractual obligation, then you as a consumer, loose all power over them.
No projects on Kickstarter have to deliver to you what they promise, it's like a charity, you can't demand anything from them after giving them money.
When stuff like this happens though, I won't ever support the company, even if they come out with a Linux version.
Last edited by Zaxth on 19 Jan 2017 at 9:32 pm UTC
No projects on Kickstarter have to deliver to you what they promise, it's like a charity, you can't demand anything from them after giving them money.
When stuff like this happens though, I won't ever support the company, even if they come out with a Linux version.
Last edited by Zaxth on 19 Jan 2017 at 9:32 pm UTC
6 Likes
slaapliedje 19 Jan 2017
Yeah, this was a dick move on their part. I completely forgotten that I'd bought this game in early access because there was promise of a Linux port. After getting jaded on several other releases, I've gotten to the point where there are only few developers I trust (inXile being one, because Fargo is an awesome guy in general) and will otherwise no longer buy something unless it already has decent Linux support. Only exception right now is if it's VR, or it happens to be included in a humble bundle that has some Linux games I don't have.
4 Likes
finaldest 19 Jan 2017
Shamefull behaviour.
Mocking the linux community by rubbing this in our face. I will never purchase anything from these clowns as they are now on my s**t list. This behaviour is the reason why I have never pledged to a kickstarter project.
Mocking the linux community by rubbing this in our face. I will never purchase anything from these clowns as they are now on my s**t list. This behaviour is the reason why I have never pledged to a kickstarter project.
2 Likes
rkfg 19 Jan 2017
It's important to name and shame devs like this one. Almost as important as to remind everyone not to preorder, and I'm not being sarcastic here. I'd also like to see an article about tips on what to look at when considering to support a dev on KS/IGG. Like, check their previous titles, the engine they use, ask them about the middleware and whether they consider to post updates about the Linux version progress, whether the game will be available for Linux at alpha/beta stage (if not, that's a valid point not to back them, been there seen that) and so on. Nowadays many advanced games on KS have a playable demo available, in that case if there's no Linux demo ask the dev for it. If they can't provide one it's probably safe to move on, either they're gonna scam you or support it as a third-class citizen if not worse. Just from the experience.
That would help many Linux gamers to back delivering developers and discard scammers like Stainless Games early on.
Would be interesting (I don't know if this is polite or acceptable to do, don't want any drama so just an idea) to track the devs by several categories on wiki (probably?):
— green zone: those who always deliver and care about Linux gamers (Arcen Games, InXile, Paradox, Frictional to name a few), back anything from them; if they promise Linux, they get it done;
— yellow (or gray) zone, not so famous devs, no previous record on Linux games, poor state of existing Linux versions or just plain unsupported ones with lots of bugs that are never fixed, unfriendly/hostile towards Linux gamers (Uber Ent. with Planetary Annihilation, Wildcard with ARK, Facepunch studios with Rust); whether to support is up to you but you're warned, they may become better or fail;
— red zone: outright scammers; promise and never deliver, sometimes not just the Linux version but any game at all, keep silence about Linux, no alphas/betas/anything tangible like it never existed in the first place (Stainless Games, Warhorse Studios although they refunded the Mac/Linux pledges in full so I'm not so sure to put them into this category); avoid at all costs and tell your friends and family.
Personally, I don't have a lot of scam experience. Almost every game from KS was released for Linux in some form I find satisfactory. However, I do have enough experience in poor Linux ports and bad support.
That would help many Linux gamers to back delivering developers and discard scammers like Stainless Games early on.
Would be interesting (I don't know if this is polite or acceptable to do, don't want any drama so just an idea) to track the devs by several categories on wiki (probably?):
— green zone: those who always deliver and care about Linux gamers (Arcen Games, InXile, Paradox, Frictional to name a few), back anything from them; if they promise Linux, they get it done;
— yellow (or gray) zone, not so famous devs, no previous record on Linux games, poor state of existing Linux versions or just plain unsupported ones with lots of bugs that are never fixed, unfriendly/hostile towards Linux gamers (Uber Ent. with Planetary Annihilation, Wildcard with ARK, Facepunch studios with Rust); whether to support is up to you but you're warned, they may become better or fail;
— red zone: outright scammers; promise and never deliver, sometimes not just the Linux version but any game at all, keep silence about Linux, no alphas/betas/anything tangible like it never existed in the first place (Stainless Games, Warhorse Studios although they refunded the Mac/Linux pledges in full so I'm not so sure to put them into this category); avoid at all costs and tell your friends and family.
Personally, I don't have a lot of scam experience. Almost every game from KS was released for Linux in some form I find satisfactory. However, I do have enough experience in poor Linux ports and bad support.
8 Likes
TheRiddick 19 Jan 2017
Yeah I have this game, the max damage release was fine and it was free for me so thats ok. But they really had no excuse to not release an experimental Linux version of the game given they had Unity3D as the engine and from my understanding they had updated it to the newer version also, so Linux compatibility should have been a easier move for them.
There is NO WAY that it would cost 200k to make a Linux version of this game given the engine used! So yes I think the developer lied and has turned its back on Linux supporters, don't give them a cent more!
Last edited by TheRiddick on 19 Jan 2017 at 10:15 pm UTC
There is NO WAY that it would cost 200k to make a Linux version of this game given the engine used! So yes I think the developer lied and has turned its back on Linux supporters, don't give them a cent more!
Last edited by TheRiddick on 19 Jan 2017 at 10:15 pm UTC
0 Likes
apocalyptech 19 Jan 2017
No projects on Kickstarter have to deliver to you what they promise, it's like a charity, you can't demand anything from them after giving them money.That's... actually not the case. From the Kickstarter TOS at https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use :
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
* they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
* they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
* they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
* they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
* they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
Now, I'm not sure how often or successfully that kind of thing has been challenged in court, but you ARE entitled to refunds if a creator defaults on their obligations.
6 Likes
opera 19 Jan 2017
I actually backed this one on kickstarter. Lessons learned. I don't support video game crowdfunding anymore.
1 Likes
fabertawe 19 Jan 2017
No projects on Kickstarter have to deliver to you what they promise, it's like a charity, you can't demand anything from them after giving them money.That's... actually not the case. From the Kickstarter TOS at https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use :
[snip]
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
Now, I'm not sure how often or successfully that kind of thing has been challenged in court, but you ARE entitled to refunds if a creator defaults on their obligations.
I backed this one. I've reported them to Kickstarter and requested a refund and guess what... no reply regarding either. How can they get away with this?
Scammers like this spoil it for genuine developers as I've not backed anything since and never will again.
3 Likes
slaapliedje 19 Jan 2017
Snip...
Would be interesting (I don't know if this is polite or acceptable to do, don't want any drama so just an idea) to track the devs by several categories on wiki (probably?):
— green zone: those who always deliver and care about Linux gamers (Arcen Games, InXile, Paradox, Frictional to name a few), back anything from them; if they promise Linux, they get it done;
— yellow (or gray) zone, not so famous devs, no previous record on Linux games, poor state of existing Linux versions or just plain unsupported ones with lots of bugs that are never fixed, unfriendly/hostile towards Linux gamers (Uber Ent. with Planetary Annihilation, Wildcard with ARK, Facepunch studios with Rust); whether to support is up to you but you're warned, they may become better or fail;
— red zone: outright scammers; promise and never deliver, sometimes not just the Linux version but any game at all, keep silence about Linux, no alphas/betas/anything tangible like it never existed in the first place (Stainless Games, Warhorse Studios although they refunded the Mac/Linux pledges in full so I'm not so sure to put them into this category); avoid at all costs and tell your friends and family.
Personally, I don't have a lot of scam experience. Almost every game from KS was released for Linux in some form I find satisfactory. However, I do have enough experience in poor Linux ports and bad support.
I like this idea! Though I wasn't aware that Uber Ent was hostile toward it, I have only played Planetary Annihilation a few times, and thought it got updated the same time Windows did. ARK I would completely agree with, that thing has been a broken mess for ages on Linux, and Rust... I do recall reading how much of a dick that dude is. But then again it sounded like he was hostile to all development, and more or less wanted to stop working on Rust for some minecraft clone.
I've been on the "Urban Empire for Linux" thread on the steam forums for a while, it seems Kalipso was on that Green Zone list as well, but they haven't announced any Linux version for Urban Empire, which is a shame.
0 Likes
Liam Dawe 19 Jan 2017
What's the issue with Planetary Annihilation?
0 Likes
apocalyptech 19 Jan 2017
I backed this one. I've reported them to Kickstarter and requested a refund and guess what... no reply regarding either. How can they get away with this?
Well, one of the critical phrases in the Kickstarter TOS is of course "they may be subject to legal action by backers." Meaning that it is unfortunately up to you, primarily, to go after your refunds. This means you may have to do things like complaints via the Better Business Bureau, Small Claims court, or reporting it to the state where they do business (I don't know off the top of my head which department would typically be most useful for that; I seem to think maybe the attourney general's office would be a place to start. I have seen some successful campaigns waged against fraudulent sellers using that method, though. It'd certainly help to have a group of people making the same complaint rather than just one, in that case.)
Whether or not the tens of dollars you spent is worth the hassle is, of course, up to you, but there ARE options out there, and you're entitled to get your money back if they don't deliver.
0 Likes
That is a new addition to Kickstarter. Was this in effect during the Carmageddon Kickstarter?No projects on Kickstarter have to deliver to you what they promise, it's like a charity, you can't demand anything from them after giving them money.That's... actually not the case. From the Kickstarter TOS at https://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use :
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
* they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
* they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
* they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
* they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
* they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
Now, I'm not sure how often or successfully that kind of thing has been challenged in court, but you ARE entitled to refunds if a creator defaults on their obligations.
EDIT: It was not, the Carmageddon Kickstarter is from 2012 and Kickstarter updated their TOS in 2014
http://www.kickstarterforum.org/kickstarter-updates-terms-of-service-important-t3255.html
As such it doesn't apply to the original Carmageddon Kickstarter.
Last edited by Zaxth on 19 Jan 2017 at 11:35 pm UTC
1 Likes
Shmerl 20 Jan 2017
Never heard of those developers, but I remember the [original Carmageddon](https://www.gog.com/game/carmageddon_max_pack).
Ignoring backers though, who didn't get the product after 5 years(!) and giving non answers is really bad behavior.
Last edited by Shmerl on 20 Jan 2017 at 12:10 am UTC
Ignoring backers though, who didn't get the product after 5 years(!) and giving non answers is really bad behavior.
Last edited by Shmerl on 20 Jan 2017 at 12:10 am UTC
1 Likes
apocalyptech 20 Jan 2017
That is a new addition to Kickstarter. Was this in effect during the Carmageddon Kickstarter?The TOS changes in 2014 were definitely a needed update to clarify things, but the TOS from 2012 does very clearly state that the project owners are responsible for fulfilling their obligations. Wayback Machine to the rescue! https://web.archive.org/web/20120102004904/http://www.kickstarter.com/terms-of-use
EDIT: It was not, the Carmageddon Kickstarter is from 2012 and Kickstarter updated their TOS in 2014
http://www.kickstarterforum.org/kickstarter-updates-terms-of-service-important-t3255.html
As such it doesn't apply to the original Carmageddon Kickstarter.
Though Kickstarter cannot be held liable for the actions of a Project Creator, Project Creators are nevertheless wholly responsible for fulfilling obligations both implied and stated in any project listing they create.
The original TOS did, indeed, focus much more on protecting Kickstarter itself, but I can't imagine that a body like the BBB, or the state's commerce regulatory body wouldn't consider that to be a binding promise.
There's always been this sort of collective idea that Kickstarter is a charity, as you'd said originally, and that people just give donations in the hopes of receiving something, but that has never actually been the case. It's certainly often a helpful mindset to have anyway - I personally basically adopt that stance whenever I do back something. If I'm not willing to lose the money I put in, I just don't back in the first place. But there has always been the idea that creators are legally bound to provide the rewards you were promised.
1 Likes
Salvatos 20 Jan 2017
I was very excited when I saw this Kickstarter campaign because I remember my uncles playing the original games when I was a kid and having tons of fun with them. I think it's the second project I backed and Kickstarter was still a new concept to me. Now Stainless is a company I never want to support again and I just don't give a shit about the franchise anymore. It's sad.
I've backed several other projects on KS and IGG since, however, and had positive experiences with nearly all of them. You just gotta be discerning and see if the things promised to you are likely to be achieved by the creators based on their track record--or determine how much money you're willing to gamble on indies that don't have much of a reputation. In this particular case, a company that adds Linux support in a stretch goal as an afterthought is very different from a company that provides a Linux demo up front and expects a simultaneous release.
I always shake my head when I see someone say they'll never use crowdfunding again because they got burned by one project. It's like saying you fell victim to phishing and you'll never use e-mail again. You're blaming the tool and giving up on all the useful things it can do in the right hands.
Last edited by Salvatos on 20 Jan 2017 at 1:24 am UTC
I've backed several other projects on KS and IGG since, however, and had positive experiences with nearly all of them. You just gotta be discerning and see if the things promised to you are likely to be achieved by the creators based on their track record--or determine how much money you're willing to gamble on indies that don't have much of a reputation. In this particular case, a company that adds Linux support in a stretch goal as an afterthought is very different from a company that provides a Linux demo up front and expects a simultaneous release.
I always shake my head when I see someone say they'll never use crowdfunding again because they got burned by one project. It's like saying you fell victim to phishing and you'll never use e-mail again. You're blaming the tool and giving up on all the useful things it can do in the right hands.
Last edited by Salvatos on 20 Jan 2017 at 1:24 am UTC
2 Likes
apocalyptech 20 Jan 2017
I always shake my head when I see someone say they'll never use crowdfunding again because they got burned by one project. It's like saying you fell victim to phishing and you'll never use e-mail again. You're blaming the tool and giving up on all the useful things it can do in the right hands.
Yeah, it's definitely a shame. There's a lot of great stuff that happens out there! I've had mostly great luck with Kickstarter as well. I definitely admit that video game kickstarters in particular seem to often be a much riskier prospect than many other kinds of projects out there. There's just so many moving parts with a game, and a few bad decisions at the beginning of a project can absolutely put cross-platform support at risk without the developers even realizing it at the time.
I admit that I don't tend to back video game kickstarters anymore either, even though I've had good luck with the ones I did back (Banner Saga was probably the most egregious of the ones I'd backed - took bloody ages for the Linux port to get out). I still back a hell of a lot of music on there, though, and art books/comics, and board games. Board games in particular seem to often do wonderfully at Kickstarter.
Edit: Ah right! I did back The Journey Down Chapter 3, which is rather overdue, so I suppose technically that one counts as the worst of my experiences w/ videogame kickstarters, though I think that there's still some time before they reach Banner Saga's delivery gap. Just went through my list and I've only got five undelivered kickstarters (of about 60, which I suppose doesn't seem like a lot now that I see it). Though of the five, three are still very openly being worked on (one's actually theoretically shipped out as of a few days ago), and I've only had to mentally write off one of them.
Last edited by apocalyptech on 20 Jan 2017 at 3:05 am UTC
1 Likes
rkfg 20 Jan 2017
What's the issue with Planetary Annihilation?It had outstanding Linux issues with CoherentUI like freezing or crashing UI. The devs ignored the issue for years though it may not be their issue but middleware's one, they've closed their bug tracker so I have no proof now. [Here](https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/planetary-annihilation-releasing-next-month-new-epic-trailer.4209) this issue is mentioned as well. I don't know what the game state is now, I hope it's been fixed eventually but it was an issue for long enough for me to lose interest in the game (and my pledge was $95 or so). They're not hostile to Linux gamers but not quite caring either.
Last edited by rkfg on 20 Jan 2017 at 5:03 am UTC
1 Likes
zikzak 20 Jan 2017
Not only they lied on the port to Linux and MacOS but also on something very very simple: a DRM-free version of the Windows game and eventually a boxed game.
It tells how much they care about their promises.
It tells how much they care about their promises.
0 Likes
Zlopez 20 Jan 2017
After my experience with Kingdom Cone: Deliverence (where Linux version is now only possibility) and Warhammer 40k: Eternal Crusade (last statement from the developer is: "Linux community is too small, so it's not priority anymore." ) I'm now backing only games, that already have playable linux demo or the developers released Linux titles before. Like Universim, Jupiter Hell or Dungeons of Aledorn.
I hope, that Linux community will grow and the developers will be punished by lower sales in the future. :)
Last edited by Zlopez on 20 Jan 2017 at 7:37 am UTC
I hope, that Linux community will grow and the developers will be punished by lower sales in the future. :)
Last edited by Zlopez on 20 Jan 2017 at 7:37 am UTC
0 Likes
Snowdrake 20 Jan 2017
stopped funding anything on Kickstarter for about two years due to situations like this.
Me too.
Great article, sums up the whole situation regarding stainless games and crowdfunding promises/stretchgoals.
0 Likes
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