Quoting: wolfyrionSo you suggest to me :

DONT PLAY THAT GAME BECAUSE IS ON STEAM!!! MONOPOLY!!!! DRM!!!! PLAY SOMETHING ELSE!!! YOU SUPPORT STEAM, DONT PURCHASE!!! YOU VOTE FOR THEM !!!!

Well I am sorry to say that but I am gonna play and enjoy the game - get my jump scares , laugh a lot about myself and have a lot of fun kicking some Alien ass... ^_^

Cheers :D

This just reminds me so of a similar argument:

"So you suggest to me :

DON'T OVER INDULGE IN FOOD BECAUSE IT WILL MAKE YOU FAT!!! OBESITY!!! EAT SOMETHING HEALTHY!!! YOU ARE A DRAIN ON OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!!! COUNT YOUR CALORIES!!!

Well I am sorry to say that but I am gonna eat this lard and enjoy it - get my beetus, rub my tummy and have some fun stuffing my face... ^_^

Cheers :D"

Sure, you enjoy it in the here-and-now but it does not decrease the significance of the long term damage being done. Don't let anyone stop you from doing what you want but try to think of the future, think of others. It all makes an impact.. maybe at least repurchase the DRM-free version if/whenever it does go DRM-free?

Meh food is not a good example ...

I could give you a better example :D

Lets say that GOG is an old fat woman that knows how to cook and keep the house tight and STEAM is Victoria's Secret Angels Models that you can enjoy your night with them but you may starve at the end or have your house in a total mess :wub:

Steam Linux games and Steam developers need support as well. As you can see most of the developers deliver first a Steam version and then a GOG version of their games so is good support both. I think is fine to have this "split" between GOG and Steam users since we both support the developers in one way or another.

However, there is a wishlist on GOG about importing the steam library of each user from Steam to GOG but I dont thing that will ever happen :P
http://www.gog.com/wishlist/site/activate_already_owned_e_g_on_steam_games_on_gog

The question your post raises for me wolfyrion is why you waited so long for Alien: Isolation to come to Linux at all, rather than just playing it a year ago when it came out for Windows. Obviously you have placed some kind of value on Linux that overrides your desire to play the game simply on its own merits as entertainment. As you say life is short, and it is not much of a stretch from accepting DRM out of convenience to accepting the use of the most supported operating system in the world out of convenience.

What about Linux is so valuable that it makes you wait and DRM so inconsequential that it can be safely ignored?

Quoting: HamishThe question your post raises for me wolfyrion is why you waited so long for Alien: Isolation to come to Linux at all, rather than just playing it a year ago when it came out for Windows. Obviously you have placed some kind of value on Linux that overrides your desire to play the game simply on its own merits as entertainment. As you say life is short, and it is not much of a stretch from accepting DRM out of convenience to accepting the use of the most supported operating system in the world out of convenience.

What about Linux is so valuable that it makes you wait and DRM so inconsequential that it can be safely ignored?

wow.... please dont confuse OS with GAMES

GAMES = All games at my opinion are actually a waste time if I have that time to waste!

OS = You already know what is an OS I assume, otherwise search on wiki :P (j/k)
In short is the system software that I use all day , using it for work, provides me money, sending emails , communicate with people, doing my personal things + a lot of other things and is certainly not for entertainment.....
ALL my work and life is on my PC encrypted and secure(hopefully).

I could easily buy another pc and using it to play Window Games but I really cant stand windows any more.

I am doing a lot of support and maintenance everyday to my customers and every time I see that M$ Windows 10 I want to throw out the whole computer.

I for one do not consider human expression to be a waste of time. I do find it interesting that the people who are willing to forgo games on principle seem to have a higher opinion of the medium in general, while those to that can't stand being without them are the most likely to disparage it.

My point still stands. You refuse to use Windows even though for gaming it is the most competitive platform. We refuse to use Steam even though for Linux gaming it is the most competitive platform. Almost all of the arguments I have seen in defence of Steam I have also seen being used in defence of Windows. There really is no distinction. You made a choice to deprive yourself of games out of conviction. We do the same, only for different reasons.

The least you can do is show a little solidarity towards your fellow kooks. Because really, to most of the world, that is exactly what we both are.

My apologies but I didnt understand what you mean by Human Expression.....
Human Expression in Games :o???? like jump scares and laughs etc??

let me tell you something...

My life before years ago was :
The only game I was playing was World Of Warcraft 7 years non stop PVE and PVP -> playing rank 14 PVP Warrior.( almost a month pvp 24h non sleep to get that rank)
That was the only thing I care about ! if WoW Was running and playing fine I didnt care about OS or what the hell was going outside of that... Yes I know it sounds pathetic but WoW was the new DRUG at that time.

Yeap I had a lot of fun, 100 + more of online friends in wow , Every raid was fun , amusing, sometimes our guild leader was yelling etc. enjoying every moment , making fun of the weakling and enjoying our superiority over the masses because when you are the TOP Guild of the server you are ELITE!!!

After some serious incidents in my real life some things have totally changed
Not that I regret that times but at the end of time everything was just pixels and some online friends which I never saw again in my whole life.

Now my life is

Family and Friends --> Work --> Martial Arts-> Yoga -> Medidation-> GYM -> Dance -> any other social activities and at the end of my list is --> GAMES

As about emotions and expressions...
My real life covers me completely :)
( hugs,the lovely smile of my girl, dance with the people I love , going to parties , drink a beer with my best friends , watching my 4 year old grandson with his karate uniform and a lot more... )

Anyway maybe I am too old for gaming :)

I guess enough about all this everyone has its own believes and reasons of what he likes to use STEAM , GOG , Linux, Windows etc No one is going to force anyone to use Steam Or GOG or whatever OS is out there.
We have freedom and we are free to choose whatever we want.

Btw if I said something bad in my previous posts my apologies for that...

I will just close that by saying just happy Linux Gaming ;)

Quoting: wolfyrionI guess enough about all this everyone has its own believes and reasons of what he likes to use STEAM , GOG , Linux, Windows etc No one is going to force anyone to use Steam Or GOG or whatever OS is out there.
We have freedom and we are free to choose whatever we want.

But that's the problem: By choosing only one dedicated plattform you automatically reduce the freedom for yourself and others. By choosing DRM you show the publisher that you have no problem with that and that's all couting. They count in numbers, nothing more, nothing less!

I kinda understand where wolfyrion is coming from, not using Steam at all can be hard for those who want to play the latest games and get all the features the client offers. I never liked the client but still fell and bought all the games that I couldn't find elsewhere. It can be really difficult to abandon it completely.

I used Steam for only 4 months and then switched to full GOG (and sometimes Humble Bundle), it was just as hard as completely removing Windows and giving up some games, but 1 year later here I am a full fledged Linux user and 3 years DRM-Free gamer.

I still browse the Steam store sometimes, to me downloading a game through the client is no different than downloading the games from the GOG website, so if a game is DRM-Free on Steam and not available on GOG or anywhere else, I'll consider that a deal.

Quoting: BdMdesigNI can understand you, thats you want your games on GOG, but you don't get all titles on GOG.

The best exemple here is Wolfenstein the New Order and his successor.

So why you don't get it on GOG? The reason is the publisher and his legal department, who can not read the German law correctly and understand.

Good, so I won't buy those games. I'm not interested in supporting publishers who don't want to release games DRM-free. That's why buying on GOG is perfect - you get DRM-free games and support those who release DRM-free.

Quoting: Avehicle7887I kinda understand where wolfyrion is coming from, not using Steam at all can be hard for those who want to play the latest games and get all the features the client offers. I never liked the client but still fell and bought all the games that I couldn't find elsewhere. It can be really difficult to abandon it completely ... it was just as hard as completely removing Windows and giving up some games, but 1 year later here I am a full fledged Linux user and 3 years DRM-Free gamer..

Which was kind of my point, really. The choice to use Linux exclusively for gaming is not all that different from the choice not to use Steam. Most of the arguments for and against are the same. To embrace one and then object to the other is hypocritical, although everyone has been pretty nice and civil in this thread so far it must be said.

Quoting: HamishThe choice to use Linux exclusively for gaming is not all that different from the choice not to use Steam.

This is only true if ideology is an important part of that choice. It is perfectly valid to choose Linux due to factors that have nothing at all to do with gaming or freedom or whatever. You see this as an all-or-nothing type deal, whereas others are not as ideologically invested. Personally I seriously dislike the Steam TOS. It's just icky. But not nowhere as icky as the (loosening) stranglehold MS has on the PC OS market, with the negative practical implications you might associate with such a monopolistic situation and more. But happily we've got a technically better choice. And ideologically, which is a bonus.

Gaming is really fun. I'd rather stop gaming than go back to windows after 15 odd years though. I just don't see the correlation between this choice and the Steam/DRM debate.

(PS: I love the open source movement. I think it's the best way to promote technological advancement and innovation. I even choose to run my business entirely on open source software, often giving up on opportunities that would require otherwise. Just to make my stance clear, if this is even relevant.)

Quoting: HamishThe choice to use Linux exclusively for gaming is not all that different from the choice not to use Steam. Most of the arguments for and against are the same. To embrace one and then object to the other is hypocritical

Not really... the main 'ideological' reason to use Linux is that it is FOSS. Your argument would hold when comparing close source games and FOSS games. But once you start with close-source game/software, light DRM like offered by Steam really isn't that much different.

And even Richard Stallman acknowledges that games are a form of 'non-vital' software that is also pretty much isolated from the rest of the system, so for them it is not nearly as important to use FOSS software as is the case of a vital piece like the operating system or a webbrowser etc.

Quoting: JuliusNot really... the main 'ideological' reason to use Linux is that it is FOSS. Your argument would hold when comparing close source games and FOSS games. But once you start with close-source game/software, light DRM like offered by Steam really isn't that much different.

Why? For me there is difference between buying a software with a concrete license agreement and usage without boundaries and a software bought through a platform where you'd even call it "renting" because it is only one account-based system. I have hear this argumentation everytime when it goes to Steam and clearly sounds like sugarcoating the fact that the software could only used / installed as long as the publisher wants you to do.

In my opinion, the benefits of Steam outweigh whatever downsides it may have. Could Steam cease to exist tomorrow and I lose access to the vast majority of my gaming collection? Yes, in theory, but so what? The games themselves won't suddenly cease to exist, so whatever value they have as a form of human expression will be preserved one way or another.

And in the eventuality that Steam does shutdown (which I don't think will ever happen; Steam is making way too much money) I'll just find some other games to play.

And, seriously, it's silly to deny that Steam has had a huge positive impact on Linux gaming. If it wasn't for Steam, we'd still be looking at the occasional indie release or Humble Bundle. There have been more commercial games released for Linux in the last two years than the previous decade.

Quoting: tuubiThis is only true if ideology is an important part of that choice. It is perfectly valid to choose Linux due to factors that have nothing at all to do with gaming or freedom or whatever. You see this as an all-or-nothing type deal, whereas others are not as ideologically invested.

I have known several people who refuse to use Steam because they have had practical, rather than ideological, problems with the service. It is not all due to us having higher ideals. You are making a false distinction here.

Quoting: tuubiGaming is really fun. I'd rather stop gaming than go back to windows after 15 odd years though. I just don't see the correlation between this choice and the Steam/DRM debate.

You would give up playing games rather than use Windows. We would give up playing games rather than use Steam. What part of the parallel here still manages to eludes you?

Quoting: Mountain ManCould Steam cease to exist tomorrow and I lose access to the vast majority of my gaming collection? Yes, in theory, but so what? The games themselves won't suddenly cease to exist, so whatever value they have as a form of human expression will be preserved one way or another.

Without Steam any title using Steamworks would become unplayable unless you bypass the DRM service, something which happens to be a criminal act in my country treated on the same level as actual piracy.

Quoting: Mountain ManAnd in the eventuality that Steam does shutdown (which I don't think will ever happen; Steam is making way too much money) I'll just find some other games to play.

Some of us care about the medium enough to not want to see our games become that disposable.

Quoting: Mountain ManAnd, seriously, it's silly to deny that Steam has had a huge positive impact on Linux gaming.

But there is a profound difference between saying that the arrival of Steam on Linux has brought more attention to Linux gaming and saying that without Steam Linux gaming did not, and would not, exist. I have been playing games on Linux for almost nine years now. Somehow I managed to get along just fine without using Steam.

Quoting: HamishYou would give up playing games rather than use Windows. We would give up playing games rather than use Steam. What part of the parallel here still manages to eludes you?

There is a parallel, as you say, but it's so flimsy you'd better not put your weight on it. There is no hypocrisy, however, unless both choices are made for the same ideological principle.

Quoting: Mountain ManAnd, seriously, it's silly to deny that Steam has had a huge positive impact on Linux gaming. If it wasn't for Steam, we'd still be looking at the occasional indie release or Humble Bundle. There have been more commercial games released for Linux in the last two years than the previous decade.

You're just ignoring that Steam has not that impact: With or without Steam there would also be some ports available. What about "Gorky 17"? What about "X2" or "X3"? What about "Sacred"? And there were some more games ported. It would not be that mass, okay. But it is NOT Steam alone!

Quoting: throghWhy? For me there is difference between buying a software with a concrete license agreement and usage without boundaries and a software bought through a platform where you'd even call it "renting" because it is only one account-based system. I have hear this argumentation everytime when it goes to Steam and clearly sounds like sugarcoating the fact that the software could only used / installed as long as the publisher wants you to do.

You seem to have a misunderstanding about what DRM is. Non-DRM software can not be used "without boundaries" either... the exact same license limitations apply. The difference with DRMed software mostly is that there are technical means in place that prevent you from using it outside the license agreement*.

Steam is also not "renting", you buy a software license just like in any other store. If they close down their store (AFAIK) they will have to make it possible for you to continue using the software as by the license given. Calling it "renting" (with some sort of unspecified time limit) is spreading FUD.

But as I said before, FOSS games and software would be much preferable and actually gives the rights anti-DRM advocates ask for, but don't really get with closed-source software either.
Closed-source (with or without light DRM) really isn't all that great, but I am willing to tolerate it when it comes to pure consumer software, aka games.

---------------------
*One of the true criticisms of DRM is that DRM often enforces legal limitations that valid in the USA etc., but in some other countries where there are for example more fair use rights (private copies etc.), these would normally not apply.

Quoting: HamishSome of us care about the medium enough to not want to see our games become that disposable.

This is my perspective: it's just a bit of time-wasting entertainment and not anything of real importance in the greater scheme of life.

Quoting: throgh

Quoting: Mountain ManAnd, seriously, it's silly to deny that Steam has had a huge positive impact on Linux gaming. If it wasn't for Steam, we'd still be looking at the occasional indie release or Humble Bundle. There have been more commercial games released for Linux in the last two years than the previous decade.

You're just ignoring that Steam has not that impact: With or without Steam there would also be some ports available. What about "Gorky 17"? What about "X2" or "X3"? What about "Sacred"? And there were some more games ported. It would not be that mass, okay. But it is NOT Steam alone!

I never said it was Steam alone. I said it's silly to deny that Steam has had a significant positive impact on Linux gaming.