I just read the post <Are we seeing the end of the most recent "golden age" of Linux gaming?>; maybe this question could be reframed as "Is emulation ending the Golden age of Linux gaming"

We're just going from one age to another, I don't really see anything ending personally. Less AAA ports from the porting studios, that's about all that's changed really and that was happening before Steam Play was even a thing, plus we didn't even get a lot of AAA to begin with anyway.

Thanks to Steam Play, people who just want to play games while being on Linux, have never had it better. However, there's still a long fight ahead. If we end up entirely relying on Proton, developers will care even less about Linux support at all. Proton itself as well has a long way to go, especially for multiplayer titles where it's junk most of the time due to anti-cheat.

I'm very positive about the future of The Linux Gamer, so many moving parts and things somewhere are always improving.

Something else to think on is the new Linux Steam Runtime container system, this should eventually help developers properly QA their Linux builds against something solid in a much easier form. Especially as we can pick it too, on any distro and it then should just work without any random lib issues.

Last edited by GamingOnLinux Bot on 5 Dec 2019 at 10:21 pm UTC

Passing of golden ages is inevitable and that's fine as long as tangible progress is made along the way. The first golden age got us the foundations to build on, this golden age has given us the tools to make Linux games. My hope is that the next golden age comes from developers actively starting to use Linux as their dev environment or at least targeting cross-platform APIs as the starting point.

People can talk plenty about how Proton might expand our user base but if those users are buying Windows stuff then that user base has little weight, so I believe developers are the key here. Pretty much the worst thing that can happen here is development tools start pulling Linux support, tying developers further into the Windows ecosystem, which could still happen if companies like Unity or Epic think that their Linux export targets aren't worth supporting due to people just playing games via Proton.

As for me, I am too much of a radical to be swayed by Proton and the like. If nobody else will make Linux games for me, I'll just make them myself.

Quoting: SamsaiPretty much the worst thing that can happen here is development tools start pulling Linux support, tying developers further into the Windows ecosystem, which could still happen if companies like Unity or Epic think that their Linux export targets aren't worth supporting due to people just playing games via Proton.

Ouch, now that would be something. Thankfully, Unity already mentioned they've seen great interest in their Linux Editor (outside of gaming) so Proton shouldn't affect that. It's a good point worth remembering though, for sure.

There's way too much inertia behind Windows-shackled gaming for things to change. Most people can't even conceptualize what is meant by vendor lock-in.

Quoting: GustyGhostThere's way too much inertia behind Windows-shackled gaming for things to change. Most people can't even conceptualize what is meant by vendor lock-in.

Without getting into all the current downsides of their current model...I honestly think streaming platforms will begin to change this though, especially with Stadia working across basically anything with a screen.

Even before the release of Steam Play / Proton (Aug. 2018), the developers of these games never showed interest in releasing their games on Linux.

1. Bayonetta
2. Dark Souls III
3. Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition
4. Grim Dawn
5. Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
6. NieR:Automata
7. Tekken 7
8. Vanquish
9. Wreckfest
10. Yakuza 0

That's just a partial list. There are many games we won't have natively on Linux even if the developers who have supported Linux for a long time are still releasing games for Linux.

Even if Feral Interactive is able to double or triple their capacity to port "AAA" games, it still won't be enough since they are limited by the game library of the publishers they have partnered with (SEGA, Codemasters, Square Enix, etc.). Feral Interactive needs to secure partnerships with other publishers such as CAPCOM and BANDAI NAMCO.

Even before Proton, there are developers who stopped Linux support or have stated Linux has low sales. Stop blaming Proton if you see some developers dropping Linux support or will not support Linux in their future games.

We need more PC gamers switching to Linux or newbies using Linux for their 1st gaming PC. We can do that by showing them there are lots of games to play on Linux, native and Steam Play. Parotting ideals such as "No Tux, No Bux" doesn't help.

Quoting: anewsonI just read the post <Are we seeing the end of the most recent "golden age" of Linux gaming?>; maybe this question could be reframed as "Is emulation ending the Golden age of Linux gaming"

Many GOLer's are probably already attuned to this, but for the sake of general knowledge this is probably an opportunity clarify some terminology.

Translation layer = converts foreign system calls into system calls native to the host. As far as gaming on Linux is concerned, this largely involves translating DirectX into OpenGL. Proton and Wine.

Emulation = takes things a step further by entirely imitating a foreign system within software on the host. Virtual machines, console emulators.

My own personal thoughts on these: When one purchases and plays games designed for other platforms through compatibility layers or emulators, one is indirectly telling the market "I endorse that games should continue be constructed adhering to standards hostile to interoperability laid out by proprietary interests". It is a single vote cast for short term convenience at the expense of long term freedom.

Last edited by GustyGhost on 8 Dec 2019 at 7:14 pm UTC

Quoting: GustyGhost

Quoting: anewsonI just read the post <Are we seeing the end of the most recent "golden age" of Linux gaming?>; maybe this question could be reframed as "Is emulation ending the Golden age of Linux gaming"

Many GOLer's are probably already attuned to this, but for the sake of general knowledge this is probably an opportunity clarify some terminology.

Translation layer = converts foreign system calls into system calls native to the host. As far as gaming on Linux is concerned, this largely involves translating DirectX into OpenGL. Proton and Wine.

Emulation = takes things a step further by entirely imitating a foreign system within software on the host. Virtual machines, console emulators.

My own personal thoughts on these: When one purchases and plays games designed for other platforms through compatibility layers or emulators, one is indirectly telling the market "I endorse that games should continue be constructed adhering to standards hostile to interoperability laid out by proprietary interests". It is a single vote cast for short term convenience at the expense of long term freedom.

So, what do we tell to PC gamers who are considering to switch to Linux?

Just stick to Windows? I'm sure telling them to just play alternatives won't convince them to switch.

Quoting: Laboratoryo_ni_Neil

Quoting: GustyGhost

Quoting: anewsonI just read the post <Are we seeing the end of the most recent "golden age" of Linux gaming?>; maybe this question could be reframed as "Is emulation ending the Golden age of Linux gaming"

Many GOLer's are probably already attuned to this, but for the sake of general knowledge this is probably an opportunity clarify some terminology.

Translation layer = converts foreign system calls into system calls native to the host. As far as gaming on Linux is concerned, this largely involves translating DirectX into OpenGL. Proton and Wine.

Emulation = takes things a step further by entirely imitating a foreign system within software on the host. Virtual machines, console emulators.

My own personal thoughts on these: When one purchases and plays games designed for other platforms through compatibility layers or emulators, one is indirectly telling the market "I endorse that games should continue be constructed adhering to standards hostile to interoperability laid out by proprietary interests". It is a single vote cast for short term convenience at the expense of long term freedom.

So, what do we tell to PC gamers who are considering to switch to Linux?

Just stick to Windows? I'm sure telling them to just play alternatives won't convince them to switch.

Even many of us who are critical of Proton use do accept that Proton helps smooth out the conversion. I imagine you've gotten that mixed up with criticism of using Proton at the expense of native development efforts.

Also, counter-point: do we actually need more "PC gamers" and if so, why? Getting more active community participants is good obviously but getting someone to play their Windows games on Linux instead of Windows seems quite inconsequential to me and any growth in marketshare would similarly be rendered pointless if all of those people are buying Windows software regardless.

Quoting: Samsai

Quoting: Laboratoryo_ni_Neil

Quoting: GustyGhost

Quoting: anewsonI just read the post <Are we seeing the end of the most recent "golden age" of Linux gaming?>; maybe this question could be reframed as "Is emulation ending the Golden age of Linux gaming"

Many GOLer's are probably already attuned to this, but for the sake of general knowledge this is probably an opportunity clarify some terminology.

Translation layer = converts foreign system calls into system calls native to the host. As far as gaming on Linux is concerned, this largely involves translating DirectX into OpenGL. Proton and Wine.

Emulation = takes things a step further by entirely imitating a foreign system within software on the host. Virtual machines, console emulators.

My own personal thoughts on these: When one purchases and plays games designed for other platforms through compatibility layers or emulators, one is indirectly telling the market "I endorse that games should continue be constructed adhering to standards hostile to interoperability laid out by proprietary interests". It is a single vote cast for short term convenience at the expense of long term freedom.

So, what do we tell to PC gamers who are considering to switch to Linux?

Just stick to Windows? I'm sure telling them to just play alternatives won't convince them to switch.

Even many of us who are critical of Proton use do accept that Proton helps smooth out the conversion. I imagine you've gotten that mixed up with criticism of using Proton at the expense of native development efforts.

Also, counter-point: do we actually need more "PC gamers" and if so, why? Getting more active community participants is good obviously but getting someone to play their Windows games on Linux instead of Windows seems quite inconsequential to me and any growth in marketshare would similarly be rendered pointless if all of those people are buying Windows software regardless.

I think we do. As of now anyone can safely ignore Linux as a gaming platform. By wild guess i would estimate Linux sales percentage to be around 10%. That's not a lot of influence on a developer. And there were times that Linux port actually hurt game's reception (Wicher 2?). We can safely assume that we will not get most of older (/currently released) games ported (reason 1 we neeed Proton). And we will not be taken seriously even if we increase our playerbase by a factor to Mac level. Until we don't have numbers trying to make devs port to Linux is like trying to turn river with a spool (BTW, is this correct idiom? SRSLY i can't check right now). With sufficient numbers question of "Is it worth to support Linux" will naturally turn into "Is it worth maintaining compatibility with Proton over native port?". Next thing- why do you think it is pointless if Linux users are buying Windows-made software? They will inevitably want it to work on their machine. And if something does not work- they will not want to buy it. If i was developer: 10% loss would probably upset me, but i would not be the end of word. If i would see 30% decline (like some patch broke compatibility with Proton) i would certainly investigate the issue. If our percentage would go higher (but i don't think it will without another huge bomb like Proton) developers would start to include Linux at beginning (as some are right now), as it seems to be much easier to properly port game prepared for Linux to Windows then other way around.

EDIT: To clarify, all numbers/percentages are just wild guesses to illustrate the point. Actual value is actually irrelevant to me.

Last edited by Gryxx on 9 Dec 2019 at 10:47 pm UTC

Quoting: Laboratoryo_ni_NeilSo, what do we tell to PC gamers who are considering to switch to Linux?

Just stick to Windows? I'm sure telling them to just play alternatives won't convince them to switch.

These days, I do not tell them much of anything. I have gone through the motions enough to begin to see a clear pattern. Using free operating systems is an action of self selection. If somebody has to be convinced by others to do something, they will inevitably drift away from it when left to their own devices.

I've begun to follow the moral behind Star Trek's "Prime Directive" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Directive . It is ultimately irresponsible to give warp technology to any civilization which has no means of maintaining it nor the development to properly utilize it.

Now When Windows useds express interest to me over switching to Linux, my first inclinations are that of; "good, you'd better start learning new things then!" and then offer them an encouraging smile.

Quoting: GustyGhostUsing free operating systems is an action of self selection. If somebody has to be convinced by others to do something, they will inevitably drift away from it when left to their own devices.

Yeah, it's clearly a difficult subject. But more than convince them I try to explain them how Linux differently works and why it's better in many aspects. I try to be honest when I speak to neophytes, the lack of something on Linux, and I do the same for Windows. But even if some people don't really understand at the moment why it's better than Windows (or macOS), if they try it and are happy about it, I'm happy too, and I will be happy to help them out to using it.
I mean I see some people that are really tired about what Windows does and they don't even know that Linux exist.

But ultimately, you're right, they have to learn new things because if an issue occur and I'm not there, there is a chance someone else will reinstall them Windows... cause these people don't know about Linux either and/or their business is only based on selling Windows/Apple stuff...
Sorry for off topic.

Last edited by Cyril on 10 Dec 2019 at 4:11 am UTC

Quoting: Guest

Quoting: Laboratoryo_ni_Neil

Quoting: GustyGhost

Quoting: anewsonI just read the post <Are we seeing the end of the most recent "golden age" of Linux gaming?>; maybe this question could be reframed as "Is emulation ending the Golden age of Linux gaming"

Many GOLer's are probably already attuned to this, but for the sake of general knowledge this is probably an opportunity clarify some terminology.

Translation layer = converts foreign system calls into system calls native to the host. As far as gaming on Linux is concerned, this largely involves translating DirectX into OpenGL. Proton and Wine.

Emulation = takes things a step further by entirely imitating a foreign system within software on the host. Virtual machines, console emulators.

My own personal thoughts on these: When one purchases and plays games designed for other platforms through compatibility layers or emulators, one is indirectly telling the market "I endorse that games should continue be constructed adhering to standards hostile to interoperability laid out by proprietary interests". It is a single vote cast for short term convenience at the expense of long term freedom.

So, what do we tell to PC gamers who are considering to switch to Linux?

Just stick to Windows? I'm sure telling them to just play alternatives won't convince them to switch.

The sad truth is that you will not ever convince "gamers" to switch to linux. Many of these so called gamers are perfectly ok with - for example - the practice of exclusives and many others which are alien to the nature of what you call "linux" or "gnu/linux". There are many other practices too that are like this, that is why most distributions don't view proprietary blobs as part of them. Even if they switch at some point, it won't be "linux" they will be playing on, but something like Android or Stadia that uses free software to build something like the windows ecosystem. (Android is already a lot like windows, i would even say much worse)

While many of us here are enthusiastic about games, I would bet the majority are not using "linux" because of them. Also, from what i gather from the comments, at least 2/3 care for the idea of free software too.

If us Linux users do not believe in Linux as a gaming platform, then, who will?

I'm a PC gamer for more than 10 years and have used Windows until 2017. I switched to Linux for gaming without dual booting even before the time of Steam Play / Proton and I never looked back to Windows. Now that Steam Play is here, I have more reason to stick with Linux.

Nobody convinced me to switch to Linux. I just searched for information on Linux and tried it. When I say "convince others to switch to Linux", I didn't mean literally messaging your friends through Twitter/Facebook or going to online forums telling Windows users Linux is better because [put here your beliefs]. What I meant was make information readily available about how Linux is suitable for certain gaming scenarios then actively promote it.

For me, Linux gaming is great because I play mostly single player games even when I was still using Windows. Yes, there are also single player games that are still broken with Steam Play but I'm hopeful that it will soon be addressed by Valve and Codeweavers. Now, for the record, I still buy native Linux games if I like it. The recent ones I bought at full price are Indivisible and Project RIP. The developer of Blasphemous informed me their game has private Linux beta so I bought the game in the recent Steam sale and they gave me access to the private Linux beta.

Is "Linux Gamer(s)" disappearing?
Nope

Is Linux gaming will extinct?
Nope

Is most publishers (which also include many "big" developers) becoming greedy?
Yes

Is video game markets nowadays are oversaturated or fragmented or both?
Yes, both unfotunately.

Do you think video game crash like 1983 will happen at any time now?
No one knows, but let's say almost all the "warning lights" are bleeping.

If video game market crashed, will Linux gaming survived?
I hope, but again no one knows. Hope for the best, prepared for the worst.

That's all...

Quoting: tonRIf video game market crashed, will Linux gaming survived?
I hope, but again no one knows. Hope for the best, prepared for the worst.

That summarises it nicely. And I have prepared! My game backlog is big enough to last me for the rest of my life. :D

Well, if there is a serious crash where enough developers suddenly give up and stop making games, of course Linux gaming would survive. For starters, we already have many thousands of games (and yes a huge amount of GOOD games too). The only way Linux gaming would die is if Linux itself stopped being used, can't see that happening with even MSFT putting their apps on Linux.

I feel things are only going to get better. Soon Unity will be fully supported on Linux and that opens up a door for Linux users to create games.

What we need to do is keep playing, showing how Linux is capable and easy to use. There might be a nice boost of users since Win7 will drop support next year.

Quoting: Philip_FairchildThere might be a nice boost of users since Win7 will drop support next year.

I wouldn't count on it... Probably most of the Win7 users will end up buying Win10, or even stay on an unsupported OS (Win7)... and in the end maybe a few of them will change to Linux.
But maybe I'm wrong!

Honestly, I'm much less of a 'Linux Gamer' than I used to be. I've used Linux in one form or another as my main OS for nearing 20 years now, though often had a windows install for games.
These days I have a headless gaming PC that I game with using Parsec, it works for me, but in an ideal world I'd happily use Linux for that PC too, it's just that a lot of the games I like to play have anti-cheat stuff that requires windows...if only because the developers don't let it work with Wine/Proton :(