[left]@fabertawe
I see your point too, that's why I pointed out devil's advocate mode explicitly.

Just to clear thing up:
The second part was more about defending Stallman than anything else.

Point is, to him, software is trivial, just sentences in a logical language, transporting ideas.
Unfree software and DRM to him is exactly the same as if I would prohibit anyone from using any of my above sentences to transport his own ideas.
It's trivial, not some literature. Who am I to prohibit anyone from building something new out of it?

Of course I weight those ethics against other things.
I use Catalyst and Steam, while I boycott other more severely unfree software & media.

My rule with Steam is: Not more than 20€ for a game, and that's for AAA titles. 5 to 10 € on average. I rather wait a year.
In my book, Desura always has an advantage over Steam
And if an indy developer sells a game I like directly and without DRM for 30€: Insta-buy, even in alpha stage. (unless he uses Paypal only, but that's another matter :D)


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fabertawe: I think Steam can have various degrees of DRM involved:

1. Preventing you from installing the game any time you want without relying on their service. I.e. to install your game you need an active account and Steam service working. (Steam going bust or you losing your account will render all you games inaccessible for installation). This is probably the minimal form of DRM found there. In contrast truly DRM free distributors offer packages / installers which work without the service.

2. Games which require Steam client to run in order to run themselves. This is heavier form and privacy/security concerns in the context of Steam mostly affect this one.

3. Games which include 3rd party DRM, always on-line mode and other such stuff. This isn't directly related to Steam itself, but Steam doesn't prevent developers from distributing such games through them.

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlPreventing you from installing the game any time you want without relying on their service. I.e. to install your game you need an active account and Steam service working. (Steam going bust or you losing your account will render all you games inaccessible for installation). This is probably the minimal form of DRM found there. In contrast truly DRM free distributors offer packages / installers which work without the service.

Of course, one still needs to maintain their own backups of these installers and packages to be truly independent of the distribution service. I must admit, if Desura/Humble Store folded without warning I would lose access to quite a few games, although I think it is unlikely such a thing would happen without some advanced warning. Still, the important thing is that if I did employ such a backup then such a thing would not matter, as is not the case with Steam.

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlGames which include 3rd party DRM, always on-line mode and other such stuff. This isn't directly related to Steam itself, but Steam doesn't prevent developers from distributing such games through them.

Neither does Desura or Humble Store, although Desura has promised better labelling when they launch their new webstore.

Quoting: Quote from liamdaweI don't generally like DRM personally apart from Steamworks because that actually adds in some fun features.

Thankfully some of those features are becoming increasingly apparent in non-Steamworks tied variants, although this is still an on-going area of development.

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlGames which include 3rd party DRM, always on-line mode and other such stuff. This isn't directly related to Steam itself, but Steam doesn't prevent developers from distributing such games through them.

Neither does Desura or Humble Store, although Desura has promised better labelling when they launch their new webstore.

That's why GOG really stands out - they have strict DRM free policy, which sends the right and solid message to the publishers who use them. They really procrastinate too much with rolling out Linux support.

Quoting: Quote from liamdaweI don't generally like DRM personally apart from Steamworks because that actually adds in some fun features.

This can actually be pretty bad. Besides DRM, Steam has lock-in problems. I.e. developers who use some specific Steam APIs and rely on Steam specific services (network ones and so on), tie their games to Steam, making it impossible to release them through anyone else. I see this as a very bad thing.

More than once I've heard that people can't sell their games outside Steam because they used some lock-in stuff. So they say - either buy through Steam, or skip it. This is pretty annoying.

Yes, as Linux users we have been bitten by lock-in services before. It would be a little hypocritical to champion the idea now that we are supported by one after railing against them before.

Quoting: Quote from Shmerlfabertawe: I think Steam can have various degrees of DRM involved:

1. Preventing you from installing the game any time you want without relying on their service. I.e. to install your game you need an active account and Steam service working. (Steam going bust or you losing your account will render all you games inaccessible for installation). This is probably the minimal form of DRM found there. In contrast truly DRM free distributors offer packages / installers which work without the service.

2. Games which require Steam client to run in order to run themselves. This is heavier form and privacy/security concerns in the context of Steam mostly affect this one.

3. Games which include 3rd party DRM, always on-line mode and other such stuff. This isn't directly related to Steam itself, but Steam doesn't prevent developers from distributing such games through them.

At last - someone's actually specified Steam's DRM for me :P

I've been playing a little devil's advocate myself, I admit. Points 1 and 2 are definitely DRM. 3, like you say, isn't directly related to Steam itself and in the case of 3rd party DRM I wouldn't buy the game concerned. Points 1 and 2 don't bother me and you can call me a hypocrite if you like, I'm not bothered by that. That's my choice after all. I'm still not being "forced" to use Steam, I choose to, despite it's "limitations".

I can see that if everyone used Steam and game devs were tied in solely to Steam then that could come back and bite somewhere down the line. But that's something I personally happily accept as I'm willing to take that "risk", I'm just not paranoid enough to worry about it. Which leads to...

Point 2 - I have Steam games that can be run directly, bypassing Steam altogether, so why is Steam not enforcing this? Perhaps the developers are more to blame than is made out and don't have their hands tied after all. Is there really anything stopping devs releasing DRM free versions?

Edit: thinking about it - I have Steam and all games backed up, so I will always have most of them (those that require it) available to play anyway in offline mode (software breakage not withstanding). However, your points are still valid.

Quoting: Quote from Caldazar[left]My rule with Steam is: Not more than 20€ for a game, and that's for AAA titles. 5 to 10 € on average. I rather wait a year.
In my book, Desura always has an advantage over Steam
And if an indy developer sells a game I like directly and without DRM for 30€: Insta-buy, even in alpha stage. (unless he uses Paypal only, but that's another matter :D)[/left]

It's funny you should say that ;) Apart from a few kickstarters, I rarely buy a game that's over £5. Metro is the big exception here, it's the most expensive game I've ever bought! It seems that between Humble Bundle offers and Steam sales most games are available at a reduced price sooner or later.

When it comes to the argument that you can still sell games on Steam that are DRM free, that is kind of like defending Windows because you can still run GIMP and Inkscape on it.

Sure, it is possible to buy DRM free games on the platform, and sure you can run free software on Windows, but it is hardly conducive to changing the culture, and you still promote a platform that provides a DRM service and/or proprietary software rather than ones that don't. If that does not bother you, fine, but it would bother me.

Quote from fabertawe

QuotePoints 1 and 2 are definitely DRM. 3, like you say, isn't directly related to Steam itself and in the case of 3rd party DRM I wouldn't buy the game concerned. Points 1 and 2 don't bother me and you can call me a hypocrite if you like, I'm not bothered by that. That's my choice after all. I'm still not being "forced" to use Steam, I choose to, despite it's "limitations".

I can see that if everyone used Steam and game devs were tied in solely to Steam then that could come back and bite somewhere down the line. But that's something I personally happily accept as I'm willing to take that "risk", I'm just not paranoid enough to worry about it. Which leads to...

You might accept it, but those who don't use Steam can't accept such lock-in and lack of choice. I'd say amongst the Linux crowd, there are in general more of those who care to avoid DRM and therefore don't use Steam either. The situation is indeed similar to requiring Windows to play and saying "so what, everyone should have Windows". If we want truly Linux gaming, we don't need Steam-only attached to it. One of the issues with Steam is that it's huge. So it has disproportionate influence, not unlike Windows vs other OSes as well. When that influence causes good things (pushing Linux as platform for gaming) - good, but when it cases bad things, they are amplified as well (DRM, lock-in etc.). That's why more competition amongst distributors is very needed, and GOG is probably the only strong contender at present, since it's second biggest after Steam.

Desura and Humble Store are proving to be more viable than one might first suspect though. Especially since Linden Lab purchased Desura, which I was a little concerned about at first, but seems to be working out rather well. The Halloween sales and contests were definitely a step in the right direction, and they are getting more titles more frequently.