Quoting: Quote from ShmerlI also don't really understand why big budget games are supposed to be more afflicted by DRM than small budget ones

Because they sell more and and are therefore more prone to being pirated. I'm not defending them either, just pointing it out. The draconian styles of DRM (rootkit etc) you see with such big titles under Windows is not acceptable to me and I've never bought any such titles. This is where they actually make pirating an appealing option! At least where installing no-cd style cracks comes in.

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from n30p1r4t3It's sad, but that basically means you'll never play all these new AAA games coming to Linux. Can you honestly do that?

I look at you with sadness for all that you have missed in your life, as it does seem like a smaller world than what I have been able to experience. The fact that you look at me the same amuses me.

I enjoy my gaming, and do not feel any great loss from my desire to keep it DRM free. But even if I did, it would be paltry compared to so many of the other things that I have been forced to deny myself, by choice or by fate.

At least with gaming, like so much else in my life, I can take pleasure in taking the road less travelled.

Hamish, I read that and thought "wow, did he really say that". You're coming across as somewhat condescending and I hope you didn't mean to :)

Maybe you like the thought of yourself as some kind of martyr or visionary, I don't know ;) I've faced a lot of hardship and problems and consider myself a moral and ethical person. I'm also a realist and have to deal with said problems every day. Steam is one of the pleasurable aspects to my life.

This has probably already been said but i felt i would add my opinion anyway.

DRM isn't a fixed value. It has a scale from GPL3 Pure Software to EA's SimCity (never again). My tolorance is that if it does not get in your way then its not a problem. If it gets in your way but balances it with meaningful features (aka steam) then its ok. I find DRM useless and a handicap to both developers and users since there hasn't been a form of it yet that people havn't surpassed, even SimCity got a singleplayer copy via piracy in the end. But if developers want to add it then as long as its kept in balance its all good with me.

Steam is an example of good DRM. It manages the game so you don't copy it and give it to your friend but allows you to play it unhindered and also installs updates, fourms and trading cards. It also manages the installation and Valve themselves provide limited support. Steam has been regarded as spyware and adware but honestly you could say the same thing about cinemas. They advertise films so should we stop using them? And even some particulary winey people will have their way as you will be able to share your games with your *family* so really there is no excuse anymore.

The problem lies when this isn't the case. Uplay/Origin have both done things to the extreme to block out priacy but to do nothing but harm the user. Things like having the game menu as a web page (Battlefield), which is NOT a good feature. SimCity went a stage further by only allowing online play which was also a feature as you could link to friends, but that inconvienced quite a load of people and didn't balance it.

Anyone who plays games with all DRM on and dosn't care is a very patient person who i admire but honestly we shouldn't have to deal with it. On the other hand those that refuse to play games just because it uses steamis a concern. If you want to do that then i also admire you for taking the hard route to remove DRM which would be great but we don't live in a ideal world like that.

EDIT: I changed my argument a bit because it didn't quite reflect what i meant.

I guess it boils down to the FreeSoftware Vs Propiatory argument. Some people will go to the limits of Stallman to keep their views but most will allow the door open a crack to not miss the games they love.

Sorry that went on for ages. But there is my views, shoot them down at will.

TL;DR= DRM isn't the same meaning to everyone, some is worse than others but play at the level that you feel comfortable at.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweHamish, I read that and thought "wow, did he really say that". You're coming across as somewhat condescending and I hope you didn't mean to :)

The notion that not being able to play AAA would break me was condescending. The fact that you are shocked that I would respond by considering that notion to come from a narrow sheltered viewpoint leads me to think much the same of you. Sorry if that offends you, but that is what I think.
 

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweMaybe you like the thought of yourself as some kind of martyr or visionary, I don't know ;)

In some ways I am, but not really in gaming. And that was kind of my point - I do not consider it to be a big deal. There are areas where I have had to make much greater sacrifices to consider myself to be a moral person, or things I had to give up just out of plain necessity. The fact that I had to wait almost a year to play Goblin Menace was annoying but hardly tortuous.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweI've faced a lot of hardship and problems and consider myself a moral and ethical person. I'm also a realist and have to deal with said problems every day. Steam is one of the pleasurable aspects to my life.

And does that mean I can not criticize its faults?

Quoting: Quote from Half-Shot*snip*Steam is an example of good DRM.*snip*

Well, that is an interesting position - I guess if it demonstrates one thing, is that we have forced people to switch their arguments.

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotAnyone who plays games with all DRM on and dosn't care is a very patient person who i admire but honestly we shouldn't have to deal with it.

How exactly is this admirable? Patience does not have virtue unless it has a point.

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotIf you want to do that then i also admire you for taking the hard route to remove DRM which would be great but we don't live in a ideal world like that.

I live in a world where I can play games without DRM. THIS IS NOT SOME IDEAL - IT ACTUALLY EXISTS!

If there is one thing that surprises me about my life, apart from the fact almost no one I encounter can pronounce my name, it is the fact that so many people seemingly make claims that what I do in life is either impossible or non-existent. That puzzles me.

Now, I must admit this post is not terribly constructive - I am going to be lazy and leave the heavy lifting to Shmerl again. Sorry Shmerl.

All praise Hamish, the Pope of DRM gaming. The real pope chooses not to have sex, Hamish chooses to not play DRM games. Now can we all shut up and let him limit the games he plays based on his beliefs while we enjoy playing all the games we want? 

We all know it's a lost cause. Living without DRM will get you no new games unless the developer chooses to release them. And with Steam rapidly becoming the standard of PC game distribution, DRM-free will be a thing of the past unless it's an indie game or made by CDPR. 

Have fun Hamish, some of us just like sex too much. ^_^

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweBut those that don't use Steam have less choice, so you are accepting a lack of choice. I have the same choices as you, plus Steam.

So, in essence it means what I said above - there is a lack of choice. It's not something that I accept or not - it's the fact. We can try to influence that, like for example voting with our wallets by preferring DRM free distributors and developers. But you aren't fond of this approach.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweAnd it's not the same as needing Windows to play. Windows is an OS, Steam is not.

It's similar to some degree. Like games which come out for Windows only essentially say: either use Windows or skip us (ignoring Wine for a moment), so games released for Steam only say: either use Steam or skip us. Similarity of the lock-in problem is pretty clear here.

Quoting: Quote from fabertawe

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlI also don't really understand why big budget games are supposed to be more afflicted by DRM than small budget ones

Because they sell more and and are therefore more prone to being pirated. I'm not defending them either, just pointing it out.

DRM does not affect piracy, therefore I still see no logical and proper reasons why big budget games would suddenly be more in need of DRM than small budget ones. The budget should have no bearing on the DRM stance of the developers or publishers from the pure logical standpoint. Yet it seems to have it for some reason. And as I said above, I think that's because legacy publishers are less sensible people, and most of the big budget games are still funded by legacy publishers (though this starts to change slowly with crowdfunding).

I've heard one other hypothesis though, why some publishers use DRM. They know that DRM does not prevent piracy, but they use it for completely unrelated reasons. For example to cover up their faults. If the product turns out to be a commercial failure, in order to avoid being blamed for incompetence, they'll point fingers to pirates, and say - "see, we had too many lost sales, but we aren't sitting idle. We pushed DRM everywhere!". I'm not sure how valid such hypothesis is overall, but in some cases this can be true. Surely in some other cases DRM is used to control technology progress or stifle competition. Either way, in practice it never has anything to do with piracy.

Quoting: Quote from trollMcGeeWe all know it's a lost cause. Living without DRM will get you no new games unless the developer chooses to release them. And with Steam rapidly becoming the standard of PC game distribution, DRM-free will be a thing of the past unless it's an indie game or made by CDPR. 

I am playing plenty of new DRM free games. Although I do wonder why I am bothering to reply to someone called trollMcGee.

Thanks for the summary Mirv. It is constructive to restate my posts with a little less angst. ;)

The new metro? DRM. Euro Truck Simulator? DRM. Portal? DRM. Left 4 Dead 2? DRM. 

Unfortunately software is driven by corporate greed. As long as the myth that DRM stops piracy exists, games will always use DRM. 

But you all are correct, no matter how hard one tries, piracy will still happen regardless of DRM. The amount of piracy of a game with DRM vs. a game without DRM will never be known however. 

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotThis has probably already been said but i felt i would add my opinion anyway.

DRM isn't a fixed value. ... If it gets in your way but balances it with meaningful features (aka steam) then its ok.

I never see any DRM as being OK. And also, why should suddenly features like ease of installation and incremental updates (found in Steam) be related to DRM? They have nothing to do with each other. Steam can very well have all those features while being DRM free, yet it doesn't.

Don't forget that DRM is not an isolated problem. DRM is the cause of wide range of derivative issues, such as anticircumvention restrictions which are shoved in everyone throat in a completely antidemocratic fashion through various DMCAs, ACTAs, TPPs and other such junk. So if you accept any degree of DRM, you as well endorse its derivatives like that.

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotAnyone who plays games with all DRM on and dosn't care is a very patient person who i admire but honestly we shouldn't have to deal with it. On the other hand those that refuse to play games just because it uses steamis a concern. If you want to do that then i also admire you for taking the hard route to remove DRM which would be great but we don't live in a ideal world like that.

I agree with Hamish here. I'm not sure what world you live in, but I don't find it hard to avoid DRM whenever possible, including not using any DRMed games. DRM free gaming is actually not scarce at all. Just look at GOG and Humble Bundle. If anything, it's video which is the most afflicted industry. You can barely find any DRM free content, except for DVDs, where DRM is obsolete and irrelevant.

Quoting: Quote from trollMcGeeBut you all are correct, no matter how hard one tries, piracy will still happen regardless of DRM. The amount of piracy of a game with DRM vs. a game without DRM will never be known however. 

No, the amount of piracy with DRM can be safely assumed not to be less than without it. CD Projekt Red even brought an opposite example, when DRM only encouraged more piracy. In essence, any time the DRM is broken, the content will be pirated ever since, rendering that DRM completely irrelevant to piracy from that point on. And DRM is broken pretty fast most of the time.

Quoting: Quote from Shmerl

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotThis has probably already been said but i felt i would add my opinion anyway.

DRM isn't a fixed value. ... If it gets in your way but balances it with meaningful features (aka steam) then its ok.

I never see any DRM as being OK. And also, why should suddenly features like ease of installation and incremental updates (found in Steam) be related to DRM? They have nothing to do with each other. Steam can very well have all those features while being DRM free, yet it doesn't.

Don't forget that DRM is not an isolated problem. DRM is the cause of wide range of derivative issues, such as anticircumvention restrictions which are shoved in everyone throat in a completely antidemocratic fashion through various DMCAs, ACTAs, TPPs and other such junk. So if you accept any degree of DRM, you as well endorse its derivatives like that.

I don't agree with it at all. I'm just saying your putting DRM under one label. The type of DRM that steam uses (which is literally only requiring you to open an application) to where EA will force you to use browser plugins to play the latest battlefield. I allow games to run it where it can't be avoided which is softened somewhat by the companys offering a compromise, but when they don't offer anything useful and throw the now poor excuse of piracy at me i won't play the game no matter how good it is.

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlQuote from Half-ShotAnyone who plays games with all DRM on and dosn't care is a very patient person who i admire but honestly we shouldn't have to deal with it. On the other hand those that refuse to play games just because it uses steamis a concern. If you want to do that then i also admire you for taking the hard route to remove DRM which would be great but we don't live in a ideal world like that.

I agree with Hamish here. I'm not sure what world you live in, but I don't find it hard to avoid DRM whenever possible, including not using any DRMed games. DRM free gaming is actually not scarce at all. Just look at GOG and Humble Bundle. If anything, it's video which is the most afflicted industry. You can barely find any DRM free content, except for DVDs, where DRM is obsolete and irrelevant.

And the reason i do this is because some of us like to play games NOT in the humble bundle or GOG which as it happenes is still quite a few. I'm sure no one in here would use DRM intentionally over Standard Games if they had the choice, but i rather like playing TF2 and i won't stop because of a few minor drawbacks such as being required to sign onto a service that actually adds value to the game.

Quoting: Quote from mirvThings were getting out of hand in the thread, just trying to bring it back to being more civilised. Debate = good, name calling = bad. Dr Who = awesome.

I agree on all points made ;)

Quoting: Quote from Half-ShotI don't agree with it at all. I'm just saying your putting DRM under one label. The type of DRM that steam uses (which is literally only requiring you to open an application) to where EA will force you to use browser plugins to play the latest battlefield. I allow games to run it where it can't be avoided which is softened somewhat by the companys offering a compromise, but when they don't offer anything useful and throw the now poor excuse of piracy at me i won't play the game no matter how good it is.

We have different approaches. Yours is simply utilitarian. You decide whether to accept DRM or not based on whether it causes you discomfort or it doesn't, or some supposed "benefits" it brings (I don't know of any benefits that DRM ever brings to be honest, from pragmatic standpoint - DRM always means reduced usability which equals to reduced quality). That's why this approach ignores all the issues which accompany DRM besides discomfort - i.e. violating of various civil rights and negative effects on technology and progress. For me it doesn't make a difference what level of DRM is deployed. DRM is unethical by its mere definition and intention behind it (I already explained how it's different from closed software and intentions behind it in the thread about Metro).

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweHamish, I read that and thought "wow, did he really say that". You're coming across as somewhat condescending and I hope you didn't mean to :)

The notion that not being able to play AAA would break me was condescending.

I'm not convinced he thought it would "break you" but fair enough.

Quoting: Quote from HamishThe fact that you are shocked that I would respond by considering that notion to come from a narrow sheltered viewpoint leads me to think much the same of you. Sorry if that offends you, but that is what I think.

No offence taken. That's not what I was shocked by anyway, it was - "I look at you with sadness for all that you have missed in your life, as it does seem like a smaller world than what I have been able to experience." Quite an assumption!

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweMaybe you like the thought of yourself as some kind of martyr or visionary, I don't know ;)

In some ways I am, but not really in gaming.

Thinking you're a visionary must account for your superior attitude then. That's how you come across (to me) when you say things like "But then I live in a different world than you do. That is what I feel you have missed, the ability to see such things".

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweI've faced a lot of hardship and problems and consider myself a moral and ethical person. I'm also a realist and have to deal with said problems every day. Steam is one of the pleasurable aspects to my life.

And does that mean I can not criticize its faults?

Of course not. I said that as a balance to your implication that you somehow have a more informed view of the world because of "so many of the other things that I have been forced to deny myself, by choice or by fate." You're not the only person who's ever been hard done by and you won't be the last. If you feel such things make you a visionary then so be it.

Anyway, this is getting well OT, so I'll wish you a good day and happy gaming!

Quoting: Quote from Shmerl

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweBut those that don't use Steam have less choice, so you are accepting a lack of choice. I have the same choices as you, plus Steam.

So, in essence it means what I said above - there is a lack of choice. It's not something that I accept or not - it's the fact. We can try to influence that, like for example voting with our wallets by preferring DRM free distributors and developers. But you aren't fond of this approach.

Voting with your wallet's the best way. It's an approach I'm very fond of actually, just not with games sold through Steam. By the same token I presume then that you refuse to buy DRM free games that also have a Steam key? Otherwise you are sanctioning distribution through Steam and condoning DRM.

Quoting: Quote from Shmerl

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweAnd it's not the same as needing Windows to play. Windows is an OS, Steam is not.

It's similar to some degree. Like games which come out for Windows only essentially say: either use Windows or skip us (ignoring Wine for a moment), so games released for Steam only say: either use Steam or skip us. Similarity of the lock-in problem is pretty clear here.

As I have said many times now (isn't it getting tiresome ;)), it's the devs choice to distribute through Steam and they are not forced by Steam for their game to need Steam to run, many don't! Take it up with the devs in question! There is no lock in by Steam!

Quoting: Quote from Shmerl

Quoting: Quote from fabertawe

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlI also don't really understand why big budget games are supposed to be more afflicted by DRM than small budget ones

Because they sell more and and are therefore more prone to being pirated. I'm not defending them either, just pointing it out.

DRM does not affect piracy, therefore I still see no logical and proper reasons why big budget games would suddenly be more in need of DRM than small budget ones. The budget should have no bearing on the DRM stance of the developers or publishers from the pure logical standpoint. Yet it seems to have it for some reason. And as I said above, I think that's because legacy publishers are less sensible people, and most of the big budget games are still funded by legacy publishers (though this starts to change slowly with crowdfunding).

I've heard one other hypothesis though, why some publishers use DRM. They know that DRM does not prevent piracy, but they use it for completely unrelated reasons. For example to cover up their faults. If the product turns out to be a commercial failure, in order to avoid being blamed for incompetence, they'll point fingers to pirates, and say - "see, we had too many lost sales, but we aren't sitting idle. We pushed DRM everywhere!". I'm not sure how valid such hypothesis is overall, but in some cases this can be true. Surely in some other cases DRM is used to control technology progress or stifle competition. Either way, in practice it never has anything to do with piracy.

Totally agree.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweNo offence taken. That's not what I was shocked by anyway, it was - "I look at you with sadness for all that you have missed in your life, as it does seem like a smaller world than what I have been able to experience." Quite an assumption!

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweThinking you're a visionary must account for your superior attitude then. That's how you come across (to me) when you say things like "But then I live in a different world than you do. That is what I feel you have missed, the ability to see such things".

Not really. I have been involved in so many things that most people would have no notion of, such as growing up on and now increasingly taking over the management of a farm, the fact that I was home schooled, the fact that my family has been involved with Linux from the beginning, etc. Do these things make me a better person? Not in of themselves, perhaps, but it does mean I grew up not making assumptions about other people based upon my own experiences and my own narrow lifestyle, because I knew that next to nobody else would understand me if I did.

If you think that makes me elitist, I suggest you consult your dictionary, because it is far from elitists to have an understanding of how much diversity there actually is on this planet.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweOf course not. I said that as a balance to your implication that you somehow have a more informed view of the world because of "so many of the other things that I have been forced to deny myself, by choice or by fate." You're not the only person who's ever been hard done by and you won't be the last. If you feel such things make you a visionary then so be it.

That is complete fabrication of what I said - any of my ulterior hardships were not brought up to try and make me seem "more informed" than anyone else - they were brought up to show that not playing DRM infested games is hardly a huge burden, and that it is a valid and and possible choice.

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweVoting with your wallet's the best way. It's an approach I'm very fond of actually, just not with games sold through Steam. By the same token I presume then that you refuse to buy DRM free games that also have a Steam key? Otherwise you are sanctioning distribution through Steam and condoning DRM.

Voting with your wallet is not terribly great, and often ineffective. Crowdfunding is the major exception here, as it at least has a certain organization to it that makes it more conducive to actually hearing peoples wishes and concerns. That is probably where the next generation of high-quality DRM free titles is most likely to originate, and indeed we have already started to see that.

That being said, the main reason I do not buy DRM titles is because I can't play them, not because I feel my meagre buying power will make a huge affect on anything. If I buy something on the Humble Store or Desura that has a Steam key but ships with a DRM free build as the main product, then I am hardly going to complain: I have my game that I can play, and as long as I do not use the key I am not going to be contributing to Steam statistics. This argument seems to be a desperate attempt to cast us as hypocrites, for people running out of ground.

Quoting: Quote from ShmerlAs I have said many times now (isn't it getting tiresome ;)), it's the devs choice to distribute through Steam and they are not forced by Steam for their game to need Steam to run, many don't! Take it up with the devs in question! There is no lock in by Steam!

Then there is not lock-in with Windows either, under your rules. But when a game is Steam tied, it is often rather difficult to make it no longer Steam tied, just as when a game is developed primarily for Windows, it is significantly harder to port.

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweNo offence taken. That's not what I was shocked by anyway, it was - "I look at you with sadness for all that you have missed in your life, as it does seem like a smaller world than what I have been able to experience." Quite an assumption!

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweThinking you're a visionary must account for your superior attitude then. That's how you come across (to me) when you say things like "But then I live in a different world than you do. That is what I feel you have missed, the ability to see such things".

Not really. I have been involved in so many things that most people would have no notion of, such as growing up on and now increasingly taking over the management of a farm, the fact that I was home schooled, the fact that my family has been involved with Linux from the beginning, etc. Do these things make me a better person? Not in of themselves, perhaps, but it does mean I grew up not making assumptions about other people based upon my own experiences and my own narrow lifestyle, because I knew that next to nobody else would understand me if I did.

I have highlighted where you are contradicting yourself.

Quoting: Quote from HamishIf you think that makes me elitist, I suggest you consult your dictionary, because it is far from elitists to have an understanding of how much diversity there actually is on this planet.

Your elitism is assuming you are somehow more enlightened, not because you have an understanding of how much diversity there actually is on this planet. I have that understanding also, as I suspect do quite a lot of people. Personally, I wouldn't try telling people I know better than them when I know nothing of their life or circumstances.

Quoting: Quote from Hamish

Quoting: Quote from fabertaweOf course not. I said that as a balance to your implication that you somehow have a more informed view of the world because of "so many of the other things that I have been forced to deny myself, by choice or by fate." You're not the only person who's ever been hard done by and you won't be the last. If you feel such things make you a visionary then so be it.

That is complete fabrication of what I said - any of my ulterior hardships were not brought up to try and make me seem "more informed" than anyone else - they were brought up to show that not playing DRM infested games is hardly a huge burden, and that it is a valid and and possible choice.

It's not a fabrication at all, I have quoted what you said. If you are saying I have misinterpreted your meaning then fair enough, my mistake but that's how I understood it at the time.

Quoting: Quote from HamishVoting with your wallet is not terribly great, and often ineffective.

It is the most effective way to influence a business, that is patently obvious! No sales, no revenue, no business.

Quoting: Quote from HamishIf I buy something on the Humble Store or Desura that has a Steam key but ships with a DRM free build as the main product, then I am hardly going to complain: I have my game that I can play, and as long as I do not use the key I am not going to be contributing to Steam statistics. This argument seems to be a desperate attempt to cast us as hypocrites, for people running out of ground.

I'll give you that one, I do play devil's advocate a little ;) The problem is, however, that if you're that fervently against DRM of any and all kinds then that's the logical conclusion. All in or not at all.

Quoting: Quote from HamishThen there is not lock-in with Windows either, under your rules.

Ha! You caught me out ;)

Quoting: Quote from HamishBut when a game is Steam tied, it is often rather difficult to make it no longer Steam tied, just as when a game is developed primarily for Windows, it is significantly harder to port.

Oh come on. I don't know what's required to make a game "Steam tied" (perhaps you could educate me there) but it's hardly the same as porting to another OS!

Mirv - thanks for the info. It's more integrated than I'd imagined. I can see why relying on Steam for something like multiplayer is done though, a big advantage. A big advantage all round actually.

Quoting: Quote from mirvI can see how it all got out of hand and this talk of elitism, etc, has come up, however. It's actually a little ironic - what some people see, others don't in the very conversation talking about what some people see and others don't.

Yes, it has all got out of hand and I'm going to leave it there now. I have a habit of going OT, apologies for that.

Quoting: Quote from mirvSide note: how many people would use Steam if it tried to take over parts of your system - e.g replacing system libs with their own? I'm very curious how many would allow it, and how many people would never play their games via Steam again.

That's an interesting point. I, for one, would not tolerate that. I run a tight ship in that regard! I was going to make a comment about people coming from Windows etc... but I won't presume anything ;)

Quoting: Quote from mirvSide note: how many people would use Steam if it tried to take over parts of your system - e.g replacing system libs with their own? I'm very curious how many would allow it, and how many people would never play their games via Steam again.

No one. The problem with that statement is that Steam does not do that. Sure it is a logical question, but how many people would use google chrome if it recorded everything one typed, Skype if chats were publicly broadcasted, or text messages if the world could see every conversation at once? No one.