Quoting: Liam DaweWhat do you think?

I think you're correct.
There are only 4 gaming platforms: Win, PS, XB, Switch
Game devs can't be bothered with more than that. Linux native games are disappearing from Steam.
Even Apple caved in and created a Proton-like translation layer for macOS (unsupported for now, but still).

Quoting: GuestWhy do you keep doubling down on making people who prefer native as "zealots" and trying to belittle their preference as just a "minority" in this and other places now

Refusing to play a game just because of Proton is absolutely zealot behaviour.

The definition of Zealot:

a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.

It's pretty clear, "other ideals", the ideology of being Native-only or nothing. That literally by the definition is a Zealot.

Also, it's not belittling to say a minority is a minority. You can't seriously believe Native-only Linux gamers are the majority? Lol.

Quoting: GuestBut honestly it feels a bit dishonest, like you're purposely being provocative on the issue after you got upset that it came up in recent conversations here and other opinions surfaced, and made it clear that one side is not welcome to bring it up here while the other is.

Uh, what? I'm laying out pretty clearly my thoughts on it, and the way things stand pretty factually. Unless you think it's not a fact that Linux gaming is a niche? And that most games do not get ported to Linux? And that often Proton can be far better?

It's nothing to do with recent comments, this video was planned as soon as the PAYDAY 2 article was posted and I've done stuff like it before.

Quoting: GuestNot arguing definition, I said how it came across to me. And there is middle ground between only playing native and not caring at all. To pretend that it's one extreme or the other is baffling.

I'm not saying there isn't a middle ground, and at no point have said there is not. You're the one who I have clearly touched a nerve here to start suggesting this. In the video I said pretty clearly I wouldn't argue against developers doing Native. But the fact is, we do have an element of the community who are Native zealots and constantly argue about it causing issues. This is part of what the video is about.

Quoting: GuestI never said that at all. Stop making up arguments. Again, it's the disdainful tone that came across.

Quoting: Guesttrying to belittle their preference as just a "minority"

You literally said it. Again, you're really acting as if I've done a wee-wee in your cereal here. This is what annoys me and how Native zealots constantly come across, like people who argue for and use Proton are somehow being nasty when just laying out the facts of the market.

Quoting: GuestDid you just stop reading my post halfway through?

So instead of countering, you're now moving into the territory of claiming I can't read. Great job so far :)

I don't know what else to say in reply really: I'm not treating or attempting to treat anyone with "disdain" but simply lay out the facts. The facts are pretty clear.

- We never got a lot of ports.
- Those that did ports mostly starting winding down or left entirely after Steam Machines failed.
- A fair amount of Linux ports get left broken or abandoned.
- Proton came along, and solved a lot of issues.
- There's a minority in the community that absolutely act like zealots when it comes to Proton. I was once a bit like it with "no tux no bux".
- Right now the Linux user share doesn't support direct ports for the majority of developers.

All of the above is just a summing up of my video.

Well yes, it's more like a creative stretch of language calling someone a "Zealot" just because they won't compromise on the software they want to use. If it wasn't for "zealots" (e.g. that bearded Gnu beast Stallman) you might be using Windows. Really, the modern use of the term zealot is a stretch in itself. We do that, a lot of our words have ancient origins that don't fit the modern connotations.

I am grateful for Proton, I play way more games through that than I've ever had Native, but I'm a pretty uncompromising SOB to the point that I don't even tolerate what most Linux distributors do (and even then I change a lot). I'm fussy with my Protons and Wine implementations now, even.

I'm scared to watch the video now.

Quoting: Liam Dawe- There's a minority in the community that absolutely act like zealots when it comes to Proton. I was once a bit like it with "no tux no bux".

This I can relate to. At one point, when the future was bright and we were moving towards HIGHER SINGLE DIGITS of market share, I thought similarly. This never happened and at this point it's very doubtful it ever will.

What Linux needs to make all this stuff moot is someone with a lot of money to do a huge marketing push for years and years, much like Apple did in the early 2000s. I couldn't say who that might be.

I have nothing against Proton / Wine otherwise i would not be able to play a lot of my games. But i dislike it that Proton is the reason why most if not all Devs rather go the route with Proton instead of bothering with a Native version. If possible i will always prefer a Native version over Proton / Wine. But if its not possible or the native version is broken beyond help i'll just use Proton.

Quoting: TimeFreezeI have nothing against Proton / Wine otherwise i would not be able to play a lot of my games. But i dislike it that Proton is the reason why most if not all Devs rather go the route with Proton instead of bothering with a Native version. If possible i will always prefer a Native version over Proton / Wine. But if its not possible or the native version is broken beyond help i'll just use Proton.

But right now...why does it matter when you click Play and it works?

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: TimeFreezeI have nothing against Proton / Wine otherwise i would not be able to play a lot of my games. But i dislike it that Proton is the reason why most if not all Devs rather go the route with Proton instead of bothering with a Native version. If possible i will always prefer a Native version over Proton / Wine. But if its not possible or the native version is broken beyond help i'll just use Proton.

But right now...why does it matter when you click Play and it works?

Well...it doesnt. Its just my preference, same as i prefer to play Console games on original hardware rather than per Emulation.

Quoting: TimeFreeze

Quoting: Liam Dawe

Quoting: TimeFreezeI have nothing against Proton / Wine otherwise i would not be able to play a lot of my games. But i dislike it that Proton is the reason why most if not all Devs rather go the route with Proton instead of bothering with a Native version. If possible i will always prefer a Native version over Proton / Wine. But if its not possible or the native version is broken beyond help i'll just use Proton.

But right now...why does it matter when you click Play and it works?

Well...it doesnt. Its just my preference, same as i prefer to play Console games on original hardware rather than per Emulation.

Well, I can understand that, but here you're playing it on the exact same hardware :P, even locally, just not "Native Linux".

Since anything can happen in the future, Proton is not the only hope. Until the landscape changes, I'll stick to my priority list: 1. (purchase) native linux games, 2. Play backlog 3. Purchase games for Proton. Since the second will probably outlast me, the third option won't be necessary. I'm not 100% strict on it, if something pops up on heavy discount that I need to play "now", I could make a rare exception. It has happened, but outside of bundles I can count them on one hand.

Quoting: Liam Dawe- We never got a lot of ports.
- Those that did ports mostly starting winding down or left entirely after Steam Machines failed.
- A fair amount of Linux ports get left broken or abandoned.
- Proton came along, and solved a lot of issues.

I agree with this. In some cases I found myself better off using Wine than the native one such as not launching but works fine in Wine, while in other cases the Windows version would perform better (with the rise of dxvk and vkd3d this is now even more true).

I learned to love linux in the early 2000s resulting in a phase resenting Windows as the bad OS and banishing it from my HDD and life for a few years (before getting my hands on the orange box and Steam and ...). At this time I played the existing native linux games (Loki Games, UT, Gish etc.), source ports and checked lots of entries in the wine appdb (playing some adventures, Diablo, Starcraft).

After some years having Windows installed just for gaming nowadays I can play nearly everything I like on linux thanks to Proton (and Valve, Codeweavers, AMD ...) and am really grateful for that.

I experienced lots of problems with older native games, e.g. Last Door when Adobe AIR was no longer funtional on linux and lots of missing libraries (some could be switched with renamed newer versions, some got compat libs at some time, some needed crude workarounds). A developer who is not committed to producing a clean and solid native game can have all his headache gone just by using Proton. I do believe that multi-platform development is the best way for any application but I'm very sceptical concerning ports. Involved time and budget constraints rarely allow a good port to be produced (just look at the many bad console ports).

Concerning "Zealots" I remember the "No Tux No Bux" crowd hammering on CD Project Red and Virtual Programming on the Witcher 2 Port. To be fair I didn't play it but the Spec Ops: The line port using the same tech made it possible for me to enjoy this game on my favorite OS so I believe the Witcher 2 port could have been brought into a playable state. The bottom line unfortunately was that CD Project Red got angry and the planned port of Witcher 3 was canceled. I believe that everyone can vote with his money but I'm clueless why so many people think it is right to be this vocal about things they don't like when there are others enjoying it.

I'd say it's up to the quality of engines now. UE4 was bad on Linux causing the likes of Everspace 2 and System Shock remake to drop native versions despite their original plans. If UE5 will be good, there will be at least new attempts to release native Linux versions. Godot can be another driver of that.

Games with custom engines are unlikely to get any higher rate of native Linux releases than before.

And then there are some outliers like Star Citizen who just develop things forever, but eventually might make native Linux version anyway since they are in no rush for anything.

I have nothing against using Wine / Proton for gaming and would play a game using that if it's available.

Regarding long term support, since they always release for Windows, even if native Linux version breaks, using Wine can remain a long term option becasue it's indeed better at supporting ABI that Windows games use for a very long time than distros with native libraries are.

Last edited by Shmerl on 13 Jun 2023 at 11:26 pm UTC

Since 1999, the bulk of my gaming on PCs has been emulated, so I see this through a slightly different lens: I'm playing games on a PC, so I have the option to format-shift and play what I want how I want, and I just see Proton as a natural extension of that same viewpoint.

Also, my taste in games mostly leans towards titles that are unlikely to see native Linux builds until the marketshare grows enough, due to the focus (and in some cases possibly the culture as well) of the companies that make them, and I don't want to miss out on things that I love for the sake of something that isn't going to happen at this time, when I've been given the opportunity to play them on my OS of choice anyway. It's always nice to see native versions, though, and I'm happy to support them on the rare occasions when that happens with a title that I'm interested in.

As an aside, I was a Mac user between 2004 and 2007, which was right after Apple stopped investing in and pushing for Mac gaming after devoted-Mac-exclusive dev Bungie and the then-soon-to-be major Mac-exclusive Halo were bought up and moved elsewhere. When Apple switched from PowerPC to x86, a lot of folks hoped that the gaming situation would improve as a result, but it did not - and we all would've loved a tool like Proton to step in and make up for that shortfall. As a result, I feel that I'm very lucky to have that, and the flexibility that it provides, on Linux.

Last edited by Pengling on 14 Jun 2023 at 12:17 am UTC

I have a bit of a different opinion on this, I suppose because I play niche games that don't work on Linux, whether Native, WINE, Proton, Linuxlator, whatever.

I essentially play two categories of games (with the last 5% being singleplayer games):

• Japanese Visual Novels


• Multiplayer games with friends

As I've gone into gorey detail before, I won't bore you again with the specifics, but most Japanese visual novels are not on Steam because Valve doesn't want them there, and over 90% of Japanese visual novels sold on the digital market are encumbered by DRM. That is, they are encumbered by DRM that does not, and will likely never work through WINE. The problem with Proton is Valve only cares about Steam games, and this is a pretty huge genre of games being completely ignored.

DRM is the hardest thing to get working through WINE, and most community contributors are not going to do that work, which means supporting DRM will only be attempted by people paid to do it. And why would Valve care about games it doesn't want on its platform working on Linux?

So, those games will not be fully supported through WINE for a long time, if ever. I usually end up buying physical versions for $100-$150 each because they have less chance of being encumbered by DRM, so will likely work through WINE. And I want them to work through WINE because Textractor only works for WINE games in the same WINE prefix.

The second category is multiplayer games, which are games like Halo: MCC, Back 4 Blood, Siege; you know the drill. Most of these don't work on Linux through Proton so I just boot into Windows. Many of these games have Anticheat which has some support on Linux but will probably never reach wide adoption, so I don't think this is something Proton will solve.

All this to say, I don't think Proton is the only hope for me. I think I'm kind of screwed either way. Rocket League was one of the few games I played with friends which worked on Linux...and they're going to take that away from me soon with Easy Anticheat (first goeth the Native port, then goeth the Proton support). Sigh.

On the bright side, most VNs can be played using a Windows VM. It's not a particularly enjoyable experience, but it works.

Last edited by pleasereadthemanual on 14 Jun 2023 at 1:14 am UTC

For me it has to be native or no buy. I want something that is meant for linux and there is support out there natively so I am fine.

Even thought I would love more native support...... Proton is really important there is no denying that...... And honestly...... As long as it gets us to play more games on Linux with minimal fuss........ I dont have a problem with Proton......

Proton was a big factor for me making the switch to Linux....... So Proton has created at least one more Linux user...... And at the end of the day...... Isnt that what we all want????....... More Linux users?????.......

Native releases should be encouraged and rewarded. To a lesser extent, developers who officially support Linux via Proton should also be encouraged. However, buying games that don't support Linux at all is just rewarding laziness.

Quoting: WorMzyNative releases should be encouraged and rewarded. To a lesser extent, developers who officially support Linux via Proton should also be encouraged. However, buying games that don't support Linux at all is just rewarding laziness.

Why is it laziness though? We’re talking about businesses here. Is it laziness not to want to go into a tiny market that won’t make much money, and that they may not have any expertise for?

Bringing games to Linux isn't just about hitting a button remember. You have ongoing support costs, and we all know there's plenty of quirks on Linux that constantly trips up developers. Time and time again we've seen most developers say it hasn't been worth it. Over the years I've covered it, very very few say it was.

Last edited by GamingOnLinux Bot on 14 Jun 2023 at 11:37 am UTC